Tookie Williams - Should he be executed? What do you think?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:07

They fried the fucker last night (well, injected) after Gov. Arnie turned down a last ditch appeal. Thousands gathered outside of the prison to worsh, er, protest for a man who murdered four innocent people for no reason whatsoever. He was also responsible for forming the notorious Crips gang which virtually introduced gang violence into L.A and has cost thousands of lives in the past two decades. The argument for leaving him be was that he has condemned gang violence in recent years... but isn't that like Hitler popping up and saying be kind to Jews? But fucking late.

What do you think?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:23

Hmm.. I'm not sure. Did the guy actually say sorry for the crimes he committed and show any remorse? From what you said he seemed to be latterly trying to change his life around. However, I dont think that excuses what he DID do, which is the important point.
He could have just been manipulating people though (using his position to get attention?), I know it will vary with the person whether a lepoard (sp?) can change it spots or not, but if say Mark Chapman said he was sorry for the death of John Lennon (which he hasnt BTW) I wouldnt believe the fucker.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:26

They didn't fry him. He wasn't on the chair. He was injected poison. Jouranlists who wittnessed the execution said that there were problems. Williams was calm and didn't resist. But they needed like 12 minutes to find his vein. And usually the executed has multiple cannulas in his arms, but here they only had one and inserted the different poisons one after another.

Anyways, my view is that his death sentence was a politial thing. The fucker Schwarzenegger could have gained way more respect had he pardoned him.

Also, I find your comparison to Hitler disgusting. How can you compare a man, whose guilt wasn't even 100% proven, to a mass-murder, a man who killed millions of people due to them being different?

A murder isn't unmade by yet another murder. Even if he was proven guilty, why not keep him in prison for life? Is it about the loss of tax money?

What is the use of a death sentence anyways? To frighten people off killing? If that worked, why are their still murders happening in Texas or China? Also note, that most gang murders happen through affect and emotion and not planned murder, like the execution is. What on earth gives a federal prosecutor the right to kill a person?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:29

I agree with you LD about the misuse of the death penalty. Hmmm.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:32

grim_tales wrote:Hmm.. I'm not sure. Did the guy actually say sorry for the crimes he committed and show any remorse?

I have no idea about his other crimes, but he never said sorry for the killings, because he says he wouldn't show remorse and say sorry for something he didn't do. You know, most death row prisoners who denied their guil in terms of a murder, confess during the last week of their life, be it out of religious purpose or whatever.

Their have been so many executed prisoners who were later proven to be not guilty of their accused crimes. Only one wrongly executed prisoner should be enough reason to exchange the death penalty with a life-long imprisonment. During that time, a prisoner also has the chance to prove his innocence. It's a tough going, but at least he has a chance. Imagine you were the next one. You wake up tomorrow and cops are in front of your door waiting for you with handcuffs ready. You are sentenced to death for a crime you did not commit. How can you fend that off? From inside prison? That's really hard and in the case of Tookie Williams even harder, because he was black.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Dec 2005, 13:35

Wouldnt it be more punishment for him to stay in prison until he dies than kill him? After all, maybe thats what he wants? Think of people like Myra Hindley (I think?) who killed themselves when they were sent to prison.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 13 Dec 2005, 15:06

thelostdragon wrote:
Also, I find your comparison to Hitler disgusting. How can you compare a man, whose guilt wasn't even 100% proven, to a mass-murder, a man who killed millions of people due to them being different?

I think Mark only meant that it would be absurd to pardon ANY killer, so be it hitler, this guy, or some other guy that has murdered multiple people, just because they SAY they are sorry...
I doubt he means any more with it, like saying this guy is as evil as Hitler or something...

Anyway... I'm not sure how I feel about it. If he's guilty, he should be punished. In this case, it was a quadruple (sp?) murder, so I'm not even against the death penalty. However, if you ARE gonna sentence a man to die, don't make him fucking wait 20 years orso for it. That's just cruel.

There are cases in the USA though, that guys dont get a fair trial, and innocent people are being put behind bars or worse... so that kinda makes it a more difficult call...
I'm not against killing a killer. Depends on the killer ofcourse. If someone kills my girlfriend or my cat, or even dares to look at me funny, I'll fucking rip his heart out, but ofcourse, that's just cause, so it's OK...
However, if someone kills for fun or money or whatever, then that's bad... except when your poor... aghhhhh .... you know... you have to always look and judge based on the circumstances...

This guy supposedly bettered his life in prison. that's all nice and good and all, but he killed 4 innocent people and is indirectly responsible for a lot more dead people. He deserves AT LEAST life in prison. Now... personally I feel the death penalty is a lot less worse (wtf?) then life in prison, so this was a good end. It should have come sooner for him, though... they shouldnt have made him wait so long.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:05

grim_tales wrote:Hmm.. I'm not sure. Did the guy actually say sorry for the crimes he committed and show any remorse?

No.

From what you said he seemed to be latterly trying to change his life around.

And even if he was...? What chance did his victims have? None of whom were gang members. One girl was killed simply because she witnessed her parents' slaughter.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:17

thelostdragon wrote:They didn't fry him. He wasn't on the chair. He was injected poison.

I know. I said that.

Anyways, my view is that his death sentence was a politial thing. The fucker Schwarzenegger could have gained way more respect had he pardoned him.

Why would you respect someone who saves a multiple murderer? Schwarzenegger did the right thing as far I'm concerned and didn't cave into to media pressure.

Also, I find your comparison to Hitler disgusting. How can you compare a man, whose guilt wasn't even 100% proven, to a mass-murder, a man who killed millions of people due to them being different?

Well, if you want to put it that way... how many people did Hitler actually kill himself? Very few I would imagine. He had slaves do it for him. From what I gather the proof on Williams was strong and the man never denied founding an organisation which has cost thousands of lives. The comparison is apt.

A murder isn't unmade by yet another murder. Even if he was proven guilty, why not keep him in prison for life? Is it about the loss of tax money?

True, it's cheaper to kill the guilty, but it's also about justice. Jail maybe jail, but it's still life. A chance to live and breathe, to think and feel, a chance that none of his victims got. The fact that people were coming out and protesting FOR this man instead of against him is nauseating in itself. He became a latter-day pop culture celebrity. Not bad for someone convicted of blowing of someone's face with a shotgun. Who's next? Charles Manson? Maybe he's sorry too.

What on earth gives a federal prosecutor the right to kill a person?

If you take a life intentionally... you forfiet the right to your own. At least he had the chance of appeals and two decades to try and set the record straight. And lethal injection is a lot more humane than a shotgun blast.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:26

thelostdragon wrote:You know, most death row prisoners who denied their guil in terms of a murder, confess during the last week of their life, be it out of religious purpose or whatever.

Why would he do that? A stay of execution can be performed right up until the last minute. If he says "OK, I did it" and then the call comes through..... Besides even IF he did say "Sorry". So what? You can apolgise to dead people. They don't hear so good buried under 6ft of dirt.

Their have been so many executed prisoners who were later proven to be not guilty of their accused crimes. Only one wrongly executed prisoner should be enough reason to exchange the death penalty with a life-long imprisonment. During that time, a prisoner also has the chance to prove his innocence. It's a tough going, but at least he has a chance. Imagine you were the next one. You wake up tomorrow and cops are in front of your door waiting for you with handcuffs ready. You are sentenced to death for a crime you did not commit. How can you fend that off? From inside prison?

Those are all good points, and it's why I would use the death penalty sparingly and only in cases of absolute guilt (ie. a stack of evidence including DNA). The thought of an innocent person being executed scares the shit out of me - and you're right it's better to have no death penalty that one wrong man executed. But with proper proceedure and appeals any mistakes should be erradicated before we even get to the stage of execution. If there's ANY doubt then a life jail sentence should be the chosen option.

That's really hard and in the case of Tookie Williams even harder, because he was black.

How did I know that was coming.....?

Look at it this way... if he was white would the media and PC brigade have given a shit? No.

There's a Scot's guy on death row right now and in his case the evidence is flimsy. Where's Jamie Foxx and Snoopy Dog's campaigns for him? I'm waiting.................................

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:54

Markgway wrote:
grim_tales wrote:Hmm.. I'm not sure. Did the guy actually say sorry for the crimes he committed and show any remorse?
No.

From what you said he seemed to be latterly trying to change his life around.
And even if he was...? What chance did his victims have? None of whom were gang members. One girl was killed simply because she witnessed her parents' slaughter.

I didnt know that, thats' horrible

I agree with Arnie in this case and think he did the right thing. Not *everyone* was wor.. I mean campaigning for his release. Some just thought he was manipulating people.
But will it really make people feel better now he's gone? I mean, nothing will bring his victims back, for all we know he actually wanted to end his life, so he got his wish. As you say, what choice did his victims have?

I'm confused.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 13 Dec 2005, 18:06

he had written childrens books to teach them of the wrongs of gangs by all accounts. he denied the murders he was being executed for but not the whole gang thing, which will have been the cause for many many murders oover the years.

my solution would be to make all such people spend the rest of their life doing manual labour for the good of the country and so forth, though i'd rather people be executed than kept in prison doing nothing but costing the tax payers money for the rest of their lives...

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 13 Dec 2005, 18:41

I didn't want him to be executed, simply because his guilt wasn't 100% proven as Lost Dragon said.

Admittedly, I don't have all the facts behind his crimes. But if there's any chance that he was innocent then it doesn't leave a good feeling.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Dec 2005, 19:35

Markgway wrote:
That's really hard and in the case of Tookie Williams even harder, because he was black.
How did I know that was coming.....?

Well, maybe because you're one of the people who says most gun crimes are committed by blacks?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 21:24

Yi-Long wrote:I think Mark only meant that it would be absurd to pardon ANY killer, so be it hitler, this guy, or some other guy that has murdered multiple people, just because they SAY they are sorry...
I doubt he means any more with it, like saying this guy is as evil as Hitler or something...

Something like that... Hitler was a rare breed (Thank God) responsible for the death of millions. Williams was responsible for thousands. The fact that he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize made me laugh my ass off until I realised how sad it was. Coming soon? Saddam Hussein: misunderstood humanitarian?

However, if you ARE gonna sentence a man to die, don't make him fucking wait 20 years orso for it. That's just cruel.

I agree. A sensible amount of time should be alloted to allow for appeals and late developments. Say 12 months maximum.

There are cases in the USA though, that guys dont get a fair trial, and innocent people are being put behind bars or worse... so that kinda makes it a more difficult call...

Again, I stress the penalty should only be used in extreme circumstances and where proof is irreproachable.

However, if someone kills for fun or money or whatever, then that's bad... except when your poor... aghhhhh .... you know... you have to always look and judge based on the circumstances...

How poor do you have to be before it's OK to kill someone for money? I'm curious, because I'm not well off here....

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 21:29

thelostdragon wrote:Well, maybe because you're one of the people who says most gun crimes are committed by blacks?

Interesting that you should choose to comment only on this remark and not anything else that's been said since my last post. And you say it as if it was me who made up the statistics to suit some radical racist agenda. I'd rather there was no fucking gun crime. Hell, no fucking guns, in fact. But evidence shows that the majority percentage of gun crimes in the UK are commited by young black males. Believe it or don't. It's not my word you have to take for it.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 21:33

I noticed Sean Penn was one of the protestors, but then he claims he was there to promote the full abolition of the death penalty, so at least he's consistent. I can understand where he's coming from, it's just a shame he chose this particular bandwagon to jump on. It's the fans I can't understand. The maniacs with tears in their eyes and placards of "Save Tookie" like he was a fucking mascot. Anyways, it's over now, I just wish he could have taken his aboherent legacy of gang culture with him.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Dec 2005, 21:39

Markgway wrote:Interesting that you should choose to comment only on this remark and not anything else that's been said since my last post.

Well, what else should I reply to? You seem to agree with me in the other aspects.

And you say it as if it was me who made up the statistics to suit some radical racist agenda.

If you have such an impression from my post, I'll have to apologise. It was not my intention to point my finger at you.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 13 Dec 2005, 21:55

Markgway wrote:Something like that... Hitler was a rare breed (Thank God) responsible for the death of millions. Williams was responsible for thousands. The fact that he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize made me laugh my ass off until I realised how sad it was. Coming soon? Saddam Hussein: misunderstood humanitarian?

That's just so cynical. A guy who stood in front of the protesters was interviewed and he said the same thing as you about Saddam.
How in the world can people compare these guys. I can't see Saddam changing and even if he did, well, good for him, but this doesn't unmake what he has caused. He is a criminal on a high political level.

But what about Williams? It seems to me that you are opposed to criminals' changing in prison. Would you rather have them stay as they are? People do make mistakes in life, whether they are small or big mistakes. But humans also have the feature to learn from their mistakes and this should be accepted by society, by people who also make mistakes and try to improve their life. The penalty should then be reduced depending on the size of the mistakes. In Williams' case, I'd say life-long imprisonment would have been appropriate, as he confessed to have co-founded a huge gang which caused the deaths of many people.

The fact that he changed from criminal gang leader to a strong gang opponent made him immortal, even after his death. People will remind him as the man who was sentenced to death, although his supposed guilt of 4 murders was never fully proven.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 13 Dec 2005, 22:11

Markgway wrote:
How poor do you have to be before it's OK to kill someone for money? I'm curious, because I'm not well off here....

If you don't have enough money for an Ipod or a PSP, I think we can all agree that would justify a killing...
Can't be cool without one of those, man!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 14 Dec 2005, 10:33

Don't you think anyone can change Mark? I can understand what LD is saying, though the fact the guy was unrepentant for what he did worried me. Not sure if this is the right comparison but if you'd been the Leslie Cheung character in A Better Tomorrow would you have had the Ho character arrested, ignoring family ties and said "Once a gangster, always a gangster"? As Chow Yun Fat says:

"This is your brother! Take a good look at him! Take a good look! Whatever he did in the past he's more than paid you back!"

Or what if it was a person who was addicted to drugs or something, isnt it better that they try to be helped come of drugs etc?

Sorry that didnt make much sense did it

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 14 Dec 2005, 11:45

grim_tales wrote:Don't you think anyone can change Mark? I can understand what LD is saying, though the fact the guy was unrepentant for what he did worried me.

He was. He repented for co-founding a huge gang, which indirectly caused the deaths of many people.

The 4 murders are still not 100% proven and hence, I never expected an apology from him.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 14 Dec 2005, 11:51

why do people consider the death penalty worse than life imprisonment?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 14 Dec 2005, 13:11

thelostdragon wrote:That's just so cynical. A guy who stood in front of the protesters was interviewed and he said the same thing as you about Saddam. How in the world can people compare these guys. I can't see Saddam changing and even if he did, well, good for him, but this doesn't unmake what he has caused. He is a criminal on a high political level.

I am cynical because the world has made me that way. It amazes me no end that there are still optomists out there. The scale of crime is different, that I accept, but I don't agree that a political crime is any worse than an individual one. At the end of both someone is dead. And the death of a young girl at the hands of a shotgun blast is just as bad as that of a soldier killed in a trench or a politician by a single bullet. All of these protestors think about the guilty whereas I think about the victims and the lives they never had a chance to lead. I used the examples of Hitler and Saddam to prove that evil takes on many different forms. If you kill 10 are you merely bad? But 100 and you're a monster?

But what about Williams? It seems to me that you are opposed to criminals' changing in prison. Would you rather have them stay as they are?

Honestly, I don't care if they are genuinely sorry. Because you can't undo murder. Most crimes I would accept the notion of rehabilitation and after proper punishment a second chance in society. But once you take a life - an innocent life - that's it. You can't ever give it back and nothing you say or do for a 1,000 years can change that fact.

People do make mistakes in life, whether they are small or big mistakes. But humans also have the feature to learn from their mistakes and this should be accepted by society, by people who also make mistakes and try to improve their life.

Sounds like you're comparing keying a car or stealing a loaf of bread with brutal murders? Blowing people away with a shotgun is not a mistake in my book. The mistake is thinking you can get away with it. Murderers deserve to die. That's almost the least that should happen to them. I so disagree with you on these points.

The penalty should then be reduced depending on the size of the mistakes. In Williams' case, I'd say life-long imprisonment would have been appropriate, as he confessed to have co-founded a huge gang which caused the deaths of many people.

But why should he be allowed to live at all when his victims never had that chance? I don't believe in mercy for the unmerciful.

The fact that he changed from criminal gang leader to a strong gang opponent made him immortal, even after his death.

And that's extremely sad. There are good people who do wonderful things for people and society at large every day but get little or no credit or recognition. But a sick killer says "hey, sorry, don't do the evil I did kiddies" and suddenly he's Jesus Christ incarnate.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 14 Dec 2005, 13:15

grim_tales wrote:Don't you think anyone can change Mark?

Sure, but it's not enough in some cases.

Not sure if this is the right comparison but if you'd been the Leslie Cheung character in A Better Tomorrow would you have had the Ho character arrested, ignoring family ties and said "Once a gangster, always a gangster"? As Chow Yun Fat says: "This is your brother! Take a good look at him! Take a good look! Whatever he did in the past he's more than paid you back!"

You can't compare real life with a movie - even a good one. But for argument's sake: Ti Lung's character is never shown killing an innocent person nor is it implied. Thus the forgiveness required of Leslie Cheung is on a different plain. He has to forgive a man who shoots gangsters, not a man who blows away innocents.

Or what if it was a person who was addicted to drugs or something, isnt it better that they try to be helped come of drugs etc?

Right, unless the junkie stabs someone in the eye with a syringe.