Cartoon Controversy

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Feb 2006, 00:03

I read that the BBC are going to show those cartoons of Mohammed that have landed the Danish and French in hot water. Freedom of speech or religious offence? You decide.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 03 Feb 2006, 00:09

Freedom of speech? Is there any intellectual person naiv enough to believe in its existence?

I'm wondering what would have happened to the newspaper had it been a cartoon insulting Jews and their religion. First of all it would be talked about as "The Anti-Semitic Paper from Denmark" and God knows what would have come later in terms of legal issues.

Good to see though that they at least apologised for printing it.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 03 Feb 2006, 05:36

A few days ago a woman was removed from the audience during Bush' state of the union, for wearing a T-shirt. Actually 2 were removed, one had a pro-war short on, one had an anti-war t-shirt on with the amount of deaths in Iraq.
What freedom of speech?

I understand that even though WE might not understand why it might be disrespectfull to print a picture of the prophet Mohammed, it very clearly is to (many) mulsims. So if it's that insulting, why even do it anyway!? Let alone ones that depict him as a murderer or whatever those picture shown!?

I believe in freedom of speech, as in people should be able to give their honest opinion about any issue and not be prosecuted, unless it's unlawfull because of extreme racism or whatever. But if I would draw a picture of the virging mary Gangbanging with the 3 shephards and a Donkey while I have Joseph masturbating over baby Jesus' head, I'm sure a couple of Christians would be offended.
I could also draw a picture of Jesus with a gun or sword, slaughtering non-christians, to portray the history of violence that's connected with the religion.
But again, it would probably cause a huge row.

It all started very innocently, with a book about the prophet, where the author was affraid to portray him on the cover out of respect or fear about the muslim's feelings emotions about this issue.
Now, personally, as a non-muslim, I wouldnt say a portrait of the prophet would be desrespectfull... but apperently for muslims it is (CNN mentioned the reason you cant have pictures of the prophet is because it would lead to infidelity among women... so apparently Mr. Mo was the arabic equivelent of Brad Pitt or something...

Anyhow, with everything you do, you have to consider other people's feelings about the issue and try not to be too insensitive.
Some of the cartoonists went out of their way to portray Mohammed in a very bad light. I dont think that's what free-speech is about.

I also feel the reaction by some muslims is well overblown, in that they're threatening with deaths and bombs and all, cause clearly that aint right either.
Many people thus believe fundementalistic groups are intentiontionally rowing people up, for their own violent goals against the west.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 03 Feb 2006, 09:00

Are the French in hotwater with the muslims too? I thought it was only the Danes and us Norwegians.

Somehow, this entire thing REALLY doesn't put muslims in a good view does it? Threatening war? Storming embassys? Hacking websites? For some funny pictures?!

So, if they get THIS upset over so small a thing, I wonder what they'd do if Monty Python had made fun of Islam instead of Christianity...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:36

I thought the thing about the cartoons was not the satire, but the fact that in Islam, it is wrong to show images of Allah/Mohammed full stop, right LD?
I'd like to see what the fuss is about though, I mean - what does he look like? Images of Jesus always show Him as white with long hair/blue eyes, which He clearly wasn't (was at least dark skinned).
I'm all for free speech and a bit of satire (though its easy for me to say that as I'm not religious), however - this may be s seperate issue - causing religious/racial hatred and oppression as done by cunts like the BNP and Abu Hamza (sp?) is totally unacceptable and those men should be in jail

Interesting point about Monty Python Gojensen, Life of Brian was hugely controversial when it came out, now I think most (?) people see it as a very funny comedy/satire and don't get offended. As I've always said, once you start having political correctness you stop having comedy.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Feb 2006, 12:44

Wha's the cartoon? I've not heard of it.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 03 Feb 2006, 13:09

This one Brad:
BBC News

I glad some one brought up this discussions.

There are two sides I like to bring to the discussion.

First, from the Cartoon
What was the point in showing the cartoon, i believe they would know that people would react like this. In the whole history of Islam, there has never been a picture showing Prophet Muhammed (P.B.U.H) or any of the other Prophet (P.B.U.T). I agree with what Yi-Long says, if there was a picture of Jesus, in a bad light, then there would be a big outcry. (Actually i would imagine Muslim also doing the same because we believe in Jesus as well as all the other prophets)

Now from the Muslim point of view, I do feel that some parts have been overblown, especially if Muslim are going to attack innocent Danish people or worse use bombs. Personally i can't believe the cartoonist have done this and would see him fire. I would also protest, but do a peaceful protest, as I like to see people seeing Islam in a Peaceful light and not in today climate.

Kind Regards

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 13:12

I may be wrong but didnt this whole thing start off because of a picture on the front of a children's book, and the cartoonist then thought it was OK to print those cartoons.

I might be wrong.
Actually Slasher there has been a big outcry about Jesus being shown in a bad light, have you seen the satirical Jerry Springer Opera?

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 03 Feb 2006, 14:12

Actually Slasher there has been a big outcry about Jesus being shown in a bad light, have you seen the satirical Jerry Springer Opera?

No never, In fact i have heard about the play, but nothing about Jesus being shown in that.... I've must of missed that. Do you have any reference to that Grim?
Also didn't know about the picture being in a children book (if it the same cartoon, then again how stupid can some one be)

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 14:23

Dunno if its the same cartoon, I just heard reference to a children's book on the news

Some stuff about Jerry Springer:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainmen ... 154071.stm

People didnt like the swearing and religious satire in it I think.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 03 Feb 2006, 15:02

Freedom of speech is something many of us abuse. It is common knowledge that Prophet Muhammed cannot be illustrated (same with Allah) according to Islam. Yet the newspaper published it anyway and now look at the shit it caused - especially now, during such a fragile time.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Feb 2006, 15:07

In 'Jerry Springer' Jesus is shown in a nappy sucking his thumb and the virgin Mary is referred to as a whore. (At least that's what protesters claimed... I wasn't interested in seeing for myself). How is this any different from mocking Mohammed?

Personally I'm truly distrurbed at the ludicrous reaction of obsessive Muslims over this issue. I thought the Christian "licence fee burners" were bad. But death threats, flag burning, boycotts, et al, is scary in the 21st century.

These gun-totting fanatics we see in middle east reports are savages who have no respect for others' freedom (including the basic right to live), yet expect everyone else to bow before their religious convictions, as if it means anything to "us".

The cartoonists are not Muslim so why should they be subject to the same conventions (apparently it's cultural rather than anything born out of the holy book) as genuine followers? I'm hearing on the radio now about protestors in London (no less) outside the Danish embassy. Isn't that because in a free secular society people have the right to protest. Should rights only be given to the dedicated and heathens thrown upon the fire?

I'm neither Christian nor Muslim nor Jew: but if I drew these pictures I would have a Fatwa against me. Doesn't this scare the shit out anyone? That a satricial sketch can be worth the lives of not just one but many. I'm sorry but every Muslim who objects to this does themselves and their supposedly tolerant (ha) and peaceful (ha) religion no favours whatsoever. Should Muslims like the cartoons? No. It's against their beliefs. But does anyone have the right to draw, publish and read them? Damn right, they do.

Nothing should be beyond debate...

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 15:13

Spot on Mark.
I haven't seen the cartoons (where are they?) but as you say they were supposed to be funny/satirical. If people can't laugh at themselves or have a sense of humor more fool them (Springer did not mock religion per se, just attitudes to it) IMO. I have no problem with satire - its' the actions of those "protestors" (ever heard of peaceful protest?) I don't like

This may just be me speaking as a non believer though.
However as Bisc says pictures of Allah/Mohammed can't be shown which is what theyre annoyed about also - satire or not.
Bisc why can't images of Mohammed (sp?) be shown?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 17:48

"I disapprove of what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it"
(Voltaire)

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 03 Feb 2006, 17:54

Its all sad anyway, Religion is total bollocks. I am sure it helps the thousands killed every day in the name of some religion. People take this shit personally, thats the sad thing, as if it hurts them in any way.

If it hurt god he would do something about it, but ohh thats not gonna happen is it.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 03 Feb 2006, 18:11

The loosers who say things like "Behead the ones who insult Mohamed"

yeah thats really nice I am sure your going to a nice place when you die

"Massacre those who insult the profit"

Them to me are far more insulting than some silly toon. Religion, what a nice thing.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Feb 2006, 18:22

Maybe its just their culture and they take their religion more seriously than Westerners do? I mean, we allow people to make fun of figures like Bush, The Queen, Tony Blair and in Christianity depictions of Jesus are allowed. OK the BBC did recieve 50000 letters about the Springer thing but out of a population of over 50 million, thats nothing to shout about. Some of the people protesting hadnt watched the programme (Mary Whitehouse lives!)

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 04 Feb 2006, 14:10

The thing thats really gets to me is these"People" are allowed to threaten and act like total fanatics and insane loonines in public and get away with way to much just because they are protesting. Lock them up I say and beat some common sense into them. The BMP scum are just as bad and not much happened to them loosers.

Ohh look the scumbag fools have set fire to the Danish Embasy

I hope them ignorant brainwashed dicks feel great now.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Feb 2006, 15:55

I have no time for the BNP - or any racist scum - but I don't think those two guys were in court for threatening to behead people or start riots were they? They're bad for sure, but nothing like the Islamic fanatics the Metropolitan Police are afraid to say "boo" to. I don't like the BNP, but there's a world of difference between an opinion I don't agree with and murderous terrorism (and advocation thereof). Yet which ones ended up in court? The PC brigade play right into the Nationalists' hands. One of the pictures in the newspaper today showed an Arab baby with an "I love Al Queda" logo sewn into her hat. It made me wanna puke. Let's just hope that if there is another 7/7 the tube is filled with these heinous protestors who demand it. I respect any newspaper that dares to stand up for freedom of speech in this secular country and applaud those cartoonists for daring to challenge religious prejudices with timely potent satire.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 04 Feb 2006, 16:23

It is sickening that these fanatics are not punished in any way. The thing is even if they find the scum who have set fire to the Danish Embasy for instance, they would go unpunished for the sake of not offending some high and mighty religion, a religion which has layed the ground for death and killing for centurys now. Its basically an evil religion which I feel needs to be stamped out, it makes me sick.

It kind of reminds me of Cristianity during the years when they would kill anyone who wasnt part of their faith, its evil and these brainwashed fools have no pity from me and deserve harshe punishment for the crimes they do and worse Speak.
As most words out these peoples mouths are bile, pure hatred and evilness that are said purley to set fire to peoples hearts and cause riots and pain, and more obvioustly to make their flock larger and to stir up more trouble. What a classy religion.

Its a shame we cannot do a single thing abouit it, as if we spoke up in public, we would probibly be singled out and killed knowing this religion. I am sure it says somewhere in the scrolls if someone bad mouths your relgion, set fire to their embasy, bad mouth everyone with evil words and maybe kill them and plenty of innocents while your at it.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 04 Feb 2006, 23:02

I'm not sure why Prophet Muhammed cannot be illustrated. I'm not a Muslim so I wouldn't be the best person to ask.

These cartoons have clearly upset a proportion of the Muslim community. I have seen the cartoons and they aren't even that funny. I'm sure that the newspaper editor was aware of the consequences but decided to publish it anyway. For the sake of a few stupid drawings, it would've been wise not to go seeking unnecessary trouble.

However... I also find the reaction by some members of the Muslim community hypocritical (not to mention petty), as their newspapers have been poking fun at Christianity and Jews for ages. Everyone should just appologise for being dicks and make up. There are worse things on the planet that we should be worried about.

To suggest that those responsible should be killed/beheaded makes me sick. I honestly believe that these people are no worse than rapists, child molestors and people who speak at the theatre (c) Shepherd Book, Firefly.

PS: I discussed this matter with a Muslim friend of mine and his thoughts were the same as mine. What a backward world we live in.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 04 Feb 2006, 23:32

Just on a sidenote:
Freedom ends where it limits another person's freedom. Even art should have its limits in my opinion. What if a neo-nazi magazine was released every sunday with anti-foreigners and anti-Jew comics in it. They couldn't legitimate that with freedom of speech or artistic freedom.

The European law says that minorities should be efended and shall not be insulted.

In my opinion, I find it over the top to send bomb warnings and to boycot Danish products. In my opiion, Muslims in the world make effort with protests etc about the wrong problems. The lack of an Islamic nation has been present for over 80 years which makes it the duty to any Muslim to strive for an Islamic nation, the Khilafah.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Feb 2006, 03:59

BiscLimpkit wrote:These cartoons have clearly upset a proportion of the Muslim community. I have seen the cartoons and they aren't even that funny. I'm sure that the newspaper editor was aware of the consequences but decided to publish it anyway. For the sake of a few stupid drawings, it would've been wise not to go seeking unnecessary trouble.

By that token anything that offends anyone should be banned?

Cool.

Can we start with Justin Timerlake?

I find his lack of talent gravely offensive to my beliefs.

Oh, and if someone should happen to behead him... well, shit happens, eh?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Feb 2006, 04:17

thelostdragon wrote:Just on a sidenote: Freedom ends where it limits another person's freedom. Even art should have its limits in my opinion.

But my freedom to see those cartoons has been taken away. Do you have the right to demand that because you don't want to see them? Who put Islam in charge of freedom and good taste? I can understand Muslims not wanting to see those cartoons as it goes against tradition but how dare anyone tell me what to think. Art should not be limited by risk of offence but by legality. If those cartoons said: "Muslims all deserve to die" then I would also back a banning. I have a very clear view or right and wrong... which I'm still allowed to have unless the thought Police have their way. I bet Tony Blair saw Minority Report and creamed his shorts at the thought of being able to control what citizens think.

What if a neo-nazi magazine was released every sunday with anti-foreigners and anti-Jew comics in it. They couldn't legitimate that with freedom of speech or artistic freedom.

Anti-Jewish cartoons are regularly published in Arabic nations...........

SILENCE.

The European law says that minorities should be efended and shall not be insulted.

At the expense of the majority? The cartoons take a satirical look at Islam. They do not threaten or endanger anyone (unless you're Danish). Defended from what exactly? Freedom of speech? Freedom of opinion? The best kind of censorship is self-censorship. In other words: don't buy the fucking paper. But don't try to stop others from doing so. It's like the Jerry Springer Opera. Deeply offensive to Christians. Yet that did not stop the BBC from screening the programme. Would they have screened the same show if it were about Islam? Would they fuck? They'd by scared they'd get a bomb up their arses. Truth is: Islam gets treated more leniantly and with greater reverence than any other religion in the UK. If those protestors demanding bloodshed had been Christian or Jewish they would have been arrested.

In my opinion, I find it over the top to send bomb warnings and to boycot Danish products. In my opiion, Muslims in the world make effort with protests etc about the wrong problems. The lack of an Islamic nation has been present for over 80 years which makes it the duty to any Muslim to strive for an Islamic nation, the Khilafah.

I won't get into the fundamentals of Islam because I don't know what I'm talking about... but anyone who threatens violence against the people of this or any western country due to satire (good or bad) should be arrested and charged with incitement to violence. "Over the top" is a drastic understatment but I'm glad you recognise the insanity of what fellow Muslims do in your religion's name. Isn't THAT much more offensive...?

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Feb 2006, 10:04

I believe in free speech and don't mind satirical sketches BUT others' beliefs should be respected - of course they should. Everyone however is their own censor (am I contradicting myself?)

Islamic papers have printed anti Jew/Christian/Western stuff for years - but nothing is done. Is this not double standards?
As Mark said the cartoonists are not Muslim so why are "they" governed by the same rules of Islam?