Let's Discuss HD Combo Players!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 26 Jan 2007, 01:12

Will Hybrid Players End the Format War? - http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/25/1931248

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 08 Feb 2007, 19:42

There is a review of the Super Multi-Blue here:

http://gadgetaholic.com/content/view/33/30/

You do get HD-DVD menus on the Super Multi-Blue but they're very basic even by DVDs standards, nor can you access HD-DVDs extras.

The Training Day HD-DVD at least however you cannot even access any of the non-HDI/IME, this seems absurd when a commentary is just an audio track ( I wonder if you can press the audio button during playback).

Fine if you can't access HDI Menus or Extras but why on earth can you not access standard extras? I presume the lack of HDI is a tecnical one but there is no excuse for opting to use HDMI 1.2, meaning you will be forced to use the lesser 5.1 analogue port for any of the 3 HD Audio formats.

This is such a shame. I guess I won't getting HD any time soon after all and will be waiting even longer before I jump in

. I can live without HDI Extras/Menus/HD Audio through HDMI but not being able to play extra period is not good enough.

On the plus side I hear it's as good as any HD-DVD Player at HD-DVDs AV.

As we mentioned, the BH100 does not support the HD-DVD's HDi interactive menu system. When calling up the disc menus, it displays a much simpler-looking HD-DVD menus at the bottom of the screen than the ones on the HD-A2. Missing was the “Special Features” menu present when played on the HD-A2. This meant, no access to features like the Director's Comments and music video by Nelly (boo hoo).

However, since the player only supports HDMI 1.2, it does not output raw Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD signals through HDMI.

According to c|net, LG has confirmed that neither the HDi functionality nor the HDMI 1.3 support will be upgradeable via firmware. Well, thanks, LG.

Think of the BH100 as a premium Blu-ray Disc player that can also play HD-DVDs.

HDI Menu:

Non-HDI Menu:

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 09 Feb 2007, 04:42

That just seems a really shoddy bit of equipment to me.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 09 Feb 2007, 09:58

That's because it's primarily a BluRay device. Which it handles very well I'd guess. The HD-DVD support is clearly an afterthought...

However, the lack of HDMI 1.3 is not too bad. AFAIK only the PS3 of current HD devices even offer HDMI 1.3 and the main difference is the option to pass compressed Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams for external decoding by AV receivers and 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit colour space support (which not any material or screens support yet... though Epson has 1 projector with 30-bit colour depth).

I'm guessing the SuperBlue can decode TrueHD and Master Audio to uncompressed audio and pass these over the hdmi (which a decent receiver should then be able to pick up and play...) decompression of "lossless" codecs in either the player or the receiver shouldn't matter much. However this is also why many are clamoring for analogue sound outputs from the next-gen players.

A friend of mine went the PS3 + XBOX360 route. I was looking at the SuperBlue - but I'm not a big LG fan

So I'm now looking at PS3 + Toshiba HD... however. I'm not sure I want HD.

Where did their 6/9 months lead advantage go? There's only players out by Toshy (as opposed to Panasonic, Samsung, Sony and Pioneer for BD) and there's already more movies out on BD than HD? Only loss seems to be that Warner are releasing more HD than BD, and of course... Universal.

I'm thinking one of these formats won't be with us next year... unless Warner really get's going with it's Total-HD format (which I do not support at all...)...

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 09 Feb 2007, 11:07

gojensen wrote:unless Warner really get's going with it's Total-HD format (which I do not support at all...)...

New Line will only be releasing on T-HD.

I expect that T-HD will be more expensive than standard discs of at least HD-DVD.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 09 Feb 2007, 21:31

New Line is owned by Warner so same thing.

gojensen wrote:I'm guessing the SuperBlue can decode TrueHD and Master Audio to uncompressed audio and pass these over the hdmi

Agreed if it can. I've not heard either way, this sort of talk tends to get to technical for most reviewers.

gojensen wrote:decompression of "lossless" codecs in either the player or the receiver shouldn't matter much.

Maybe. Comparing DD5.1/DTS being decoded by a DVD Player and then passed to an Amp with the bitstream being sent and decoded by the Amp the latter wins hands down.

This is not a fair comparison as I was using analogue outputs for the DVD Player decoding test but even so.

I'd prefer if the Amp decoded it as all the work is then done internally and Amps in my experience tend to be better at decoding than players but agreed if all is equal it shouldn't matter.

gojensen wrote:However this is also why many are clamoring for analogue sound outputs from the next-gen players.

Like Me.

gojensen wrote:Where did their 6/9 months lead advantage go? There's only players out by Toshy (as opposed to Panasonic, Samsung, Sony and Pioneer for BD) and there's already more movies out on BD than HD?

I was wondering that. HD-DVD got off to a cracking start and it took BD a while to get going but today IMO the formats are really equal and the old "HD-DVD is better" argument price aside no longer holds true. Especially now BD50 is common place.

It is worrying that still only one hardware supplier is supporting HD-DVD. With LG just about in there.

G are a fine supplier IMO.

That just seems a really shoddy bit of equipment to me.

Shoddy, why? Because it can't handle HDI menus (so extras to for those) or HDI extras? Not all HD-DVDs use HDI so those extras will work fine.

So menus are suddenly more important than AV quality? Which reading the review it handles just fine.

Agreed it's a big disappointment but the player is far from shoddy. The Second Generation players should rock (I hear they should be out in the summer).

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 10 Feb 2007, 04:06

Because it should be cutting edge technology, but it's just basically a Frankenstein's monster of a player, yet they're expecting us to pay plenty for it. It's stupid. I don't care whether you think it's not that expensive or whatever, the fact is, it's a lot of money to pay for something which doesn't even do everything it's supposed to. I'm just annoyed at how these big companies are always releasing pieces of shit to the general public.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 10 Feb 2007, 09:56

It's still a helluva lot cheaper than buying a HD-DVD player AND a Blu-Ray player. If I recall, the price of the SuperBlue is about the price of a regular BRD player (?) so you would get the HD-DVD player for free

Still. Warner says Total-HD is atleast 4-5 months off yet (2nd half of 2007) - and to be honeste I'm really crossing my fingers hoping that by that time there won't be a need for Total-HD as one of the formats has gone belly up.

My reasoning is, I don't like flippers. And Total-HD will be a flipper, HD on one side, BRD on the other. I prefer discs with disc art on one side. At least that way there's only one side for me to be carefull with

Oh and the confusion this would spring from my kid... "hey look, if you put it with the little red ring UP you have to insert it into THIS player... if you put it the other way, you need to use THAT player..." (unless I had a superblue)...

Maybe I'll need to paint the units red and blue to match the covers eh?

It's just stupid (the format "war") and a direct result of Toshiba buying into Bill Gates thinking he could manhandle his will and shoddy patents onto the home consumer. Especially since Toshiba has been known to describe HD as an interim solution (because they knew bluray was better

)

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 10 Feb 2007, 10:15

I guess this release list for the next few months says abit about HD support...

Upcoming HD-DVD releases:
Failure to Launch (Paramount)
Hollywoodland (Universal)
The Departed (Warner)
Babel (Paramount)
Bullitt (Warner)
The Getaway (1972) (Warner)
Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time (Interscope)
Happy Feet (Warner)
National Geographic: Relentless Enemies (Warner)
Payback: Straight Up - The Director's Cut (Paramount)
Planet Earth: The Complete Collection (BBC) February 06, 2007
American Psycho (Lionsgate)
Failure to Launch (Paramount)
First Blood (Lionsgate)
Reservoir Dogs (Lionsgate)
Running With Scissors (Sony)
The Tailor of Panama (Sony)

Upcoming BluRay releases:
Broken Arrow (Fox)
Chain Reaction (Fox)
The Departed (Warner)
Entrapment (Fox)
Ladder 49 (Buena Vista)
Marie Antoinette (Sony)
The Marine (Fox)
Phone Booth (Fox)
Planet of the Apes (Fox)
Reign of Fire (Buena Vista)
The Sentinel (Fox)
The Usual Suspects (Fox)
Babel (Paramount)
The Prestige (Buena Vista)
Vertical Limit (Sony)
Bullitt (Warner)
The Getaway (1972) (Warner)
Nine Inch Nails Live: Beside You in Time (Interscope)
Stranger Than Fiction (Sony)
Casino Royale (Sony)
Commando (Fox)
Dances with Wolves (MGM)
Dodgeball (Fox)
Hoosiers (MGM)
Ice Age (Fox)
Layer Cake (Sony)
Mr. & Mrs. Smith (Fox)
The Thomas Crown Affair (1999) (MGM)
Big Fish (Sony)
Chicken Little (Buena Vista)
Finding Neverland (Buena Vista)
Happy Feet (Warner)
National Geographic: Relentless Enemies (Warner)
Dude, Where's My Car? (MGM)
The Fly (1986) (Fox)
G.I. Jane (Buena Vista)
Hannibal (MGM)
King Arthur Director's Cut (Buena Vista)
Me, Myself & Irene (Fox)
The Silence of the Lambs (MGM)
Tristan & Isolde (Fox)
Payback: Straight Up - The Director's Cut (Paramount)
Turistas (Fox)
Planet Earth: The Complete Collection (BBC)
Con Air (Buena Vista)
Crimson Tide (Buena Vista)
The Rock (Buena Vista)

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 10 Feb 2007, 11:13

I was more under the impression that it was because of Sony basically wanting to control everything and have all the profits. They always seem to come out with their own formats which fail, and always enforce harsh security features which negatively affect the consumers.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 11 Feb 2007, 09:21

Nah, there's actually more people behind the creation of BluRay than HD. HD is very much a creation of Toshiba and Microsoft (the HDi layers). And it was Toshiba that turned down most offers from the Sony camp to collaborate on joining the two formats...

If I remember correctly the BluRay group wanted to use the content from HD but the disc structure of BluRay or something... (ie we'd be having HDi on BluRay). I'm guessing Toshiba didn't want this because their biggest patents lay in the disc and they possibly didn't want to rebuild their production lines or something? Anyways Toshiba turned'em down twice - once after a few months of collaborating... and then finally said 'it won't happen'... when re-invited by a Sony bigtop BluRay exec...

From all this one could say Toshiba was certain they had a winner on their hand... given the film studios disc support I can't see how they could've thought that. And from the DivX fiasco (and SACD/DVDA) they must know that the consumer don't want competition on this level.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 11 Feb 2007, 12:45

Looking at gojensen's release table, I must say that there is a much higher shit to good film ratio for Blu-ray.

Nice to see that Lionsgate supports HD-DVD afterall. Coming out of the gate with good films like American Psycho and Reservoir Dogs as well, rather than shit like Saw 3.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Feb 2007, 17:51

gasteropod wrote:I was more under the impression that it was because of Sony basically wanting to control everything and have all the profits.

How do you reckon that? They don't own Paramount, BV, Lionsgate or Fox.

The truth is this time round it's the other way round with the greedy Toshiba (and Microsoft) want control. I fail to see how any format can survive when all hardware comes from one company.

Combos players are the (realistic) future. I can see other companies than just LG will have a go.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 11 Feb 2007, 18:27

Well aren't Sony gaining profits from studios using their Blu-Ray discs? Aren't Sony saving money by not using someone else's format for their releases? If not, then fair enough.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Feb 2007, 18:50

How? I believe Sony invented the format but they don't solely own it. I'm sure Panasonic are as much behind it, it's just Panasonic don't release movies.

Aren't Sony saving money by not using someone else's format for their releases?

What HD-DVD? Like Toshiba not using BD.

I don't care whether you think it's not that expensive or whatever, the fact is, it's a lot of money to pay for something which doesn't even do everything it's supposed to.

When did I say it was cheap?

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 11 Feb 2007, 19:11

It was incase you were going to say that it's not too expensive for what it is

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 12 Feb 2007, 00:31

bradavon wrote:How? I believe Sony invented the format but they don't solely own it. I'm sure Panasonic are as much behind it, it's just Panasonic don't release movies.

EvaUnit02 wrote:According to Don May Jr., Sony charges royalties PER DISC pressed to publishers, while HD-DVD charges none at all.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 12 Feb 2007, 01:08

Oops my bad. It doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest though, so bit of a moot point.

gasteropod wrote:It was incase you were going to say that it's not too expensive for what it is

If it worked properly I would have

. I may have even had it on pre-order (UK version).

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 14 Apr 2007, 15:08

Sweet Samsung are following LG later this year and are too releasing a Combo player:

http://www.itworld.com/Tech/5051/070413samsungbluray/

I had a feeling Samsung would do this, it's just like them. I have faith Samsung will get it right this time (full HD-DVD support this time please). If so it "will" be mine

Hold up: It says possibly only a few months in Europe

- "He said the player could be available in Europe in the following few months".

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 14 Apr 2007, 15:50

I dont think I will even bother with one now, Blu Ray has won and its pointless having the looser as well.

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 14 Apr 2007, 18:30

How has Blu-Ray won, when it doesn't have Universal distributing films on it?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 14 Apr 2007, 19:03

I believe it's selling more titles but that doesn't mean BD has won in the slightest and HD-DVD is the loser even more so.

Both Universal, Warner and Paramount are still releasing HD-DVDs. More to the point there are still shed loads of HD-DVDs not on the BD format. King Kong for example.

Until they get re-released (if they do) Combo is the only option for me. I'm not buying into one format until I can play ALL the films I want to. Of course this is assuming the player is a reasonable price and it plays HD-DVD and BD properly.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 15 Apr 2007, 08:50

gasteropod wrote:How has Blu-Ray won, when it doesn't have Universal distributing films on it?

That just means Universal has lost the HD race... much like Disney lost the Divx/DVD race. DVD succeeded well without the Divx "exclusive" studios till they came around...

Thing is... two formats hurts both formats. SACD vs DVD-A? You won't find EITHER format in a store here. And retailers are really not too keen on stocking up on dual formats for film either... DVD mostly replaced VHS, that is to say... stores had VHS till DVD was big enough and then switched.

There will be confusion with two incompatible formats - and I can't understand those that says "both formats have merits". If you are serious about HD, you'd understand the need for one format for market penetration.

Warner are working on re-releases of the earliest HD-DVD-only titles, they just needed to wait for authoring and playback software to catch up to the final standards.

As it is now, I hope HD-DVD caves, simply because I'm pretty certain that Sony will never cave. They can't afford to. If blu-ray lost that would leave Sony with millions of game consoles with a "dead disc-drive" ... meaning costs for producing the discs/games would go up... they'd never get the "break" they need in the drive-production-costs, since no one else is producing brd pickups etc. etc. So Sony won't cave... that leaves the HD-camp to cave. Microsoft is already on the fence (mostly because they want to dispense with discs - but I'm telling you the internet is NOT ready for that kind of downloads, and Joe Public is NOT ready for the storage capacity and DRM mess s/he needs to be...)

I like discs/physical media. Means *I* control what *I* own, and if I want to take the flick with me to a friend, I can do so at my own terms. If I were to listen to Microsoft I'd need to first tear down my NAS (which is about 20kg) and probably my MCE player aswell (another 5-10?)... not to talk about the size... Nah. Give me a lil' disc

gasteropod · Post by **gasteropod** » 15 Apr 2007, 11:29

Yeah, it's good to physically own something, rather than just some data bytes.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 Apr 2007, 12:39

gojensen wrote:That just means Universal has lost the HD race... much like Disney lost the Divx/DVD race. DVD succeeded well without the Divx "exclusive" studios till they came around...

They've not "lost" though that's the difference. It was very different back in the day of DVD as few people owned DivX hardware. Thousands own HD-DVD, all HD-DVD supporting studios are still releasing formats and there are thousands out there.

gojensen wrote:Thing is... two formats hurts both formats. SACD vs DVD-A? You won't find EITHER format in a store here.

Yeah that is a massive wasted opportunity. Most studios that originally supported them have given up. A few still get released but it's few and far between. I own a grand total of 12 HD Audio discs (that is SACD and DVD-A combined). They're great but I can't see it growing much as A: They're still to expensive and B: The number of titles is still pitiful.

But then like HD for the vast majority of people CD is more than fine, as is DVD.

gojensen wrote:There will be confusion with two incompatible formats - and I can't understand those that says "both formats have merits". If you are serious about HD, you'd understand the need for one format for market penetration.

I'm very serious about HD but I'm more serious about wanting to own all the films I want to. I can't understand those who will risk and buy expensive hardware knowing they can't play all the titles out there.

King Kong is great that's on HD-DVD, oh wait Casino Royale is also great that's on BD. What do I do if I only have a HD-DVD or BD Player? Sulk is what I do.

The fact is for the foreseeable future neither format is going anywhere, hence I want combo. If as you say one format truely dies (and to do that the opposing side would have to do a u-turn) then I'll be more than happy to support it. With a combo this won't matter as I'll be able to use the dead format and the discs I've already bought still.

Maybe it is only a matter of time before Toshiba give up on HD-DVD but it sure as hell won't be happening this year and am I (like supposedly you) supposed to wait for ever? On the off chance.

Don't forget a combo can still player the winning format, it's not like a combo is suddenly useless because it happens to play both.

gojensen wrote:Warner are working on re-releases of the earliest HD-DVD-only titles, they just needed to wait for authoring and playback software to catch up to the final standards.

Any source link? What all HD-DVD only titles?

gojensen wrote:mostly because they want to dispense with discs - but I'm telling you the internet is NOT ready for that kind of downloads, and Joe Public is NOT ready for the storage capacity and DRM mess s/he needs to be...

That's years off. Most people the top you can get in the UK is 2Mb that's nowhere near enough.

It's pretty obvious Microsoft deliberately released an add-on to their Xbox 360 to not only keep the cost down but to not tie it to any HD format.

gasteropod wrote:Yeah, it's good to physically own something, rather than just some data bytes.

Oddly millions of teenagers and the like would beg to differ. I wouldn't but many would.