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Torture: America's Brutal Prisons (Wednesday C4, 11:05pm)
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 09:38
by grim_tales
A programme about the War on Terror on C4 (the last in a season of four), could be intresting. Sorry I hadnt posted this earlier.
Did anyone see the earlier ones? On Monday there was a programme on C4 where people "volunteered" (!) to undergo the interrogation/torture techniques that the US uses on some prisoners or terror suspects. I missed it yesterday but IMO just the idea alone is sad and sick and reality TV has gone too far, up its own arse and out the other side.
I don't want to watch people being scared and hurt in the name of entertainment.
The Running Man wasnt to far from what was to come then
You should still check out Wednesday's programme though, it attempts to answer things like were the US abuse of prisoners at Abu Graihb in Iraq an isolated incident (as Bush tried to convince everybody) or not?
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 14:30
by ghevans
In defense of last nights programme - the whole volunteer aspect wasn't in the name of reality tv nor entertainment at all - it was an experiment and an absolutely sickening insight into what the detainees at Guantanamo had to endure (not only for 2 days as the candidates experienced but for years).
It was an educational program that helped bring out into the open what the US are getting away with - it was shameful and evil (it certainly wasnt Big Brother with torture). A few of the candidates had said prior to the experiment that they felt that in certain circumstances the mis-treatment could be justified - but as soon as they were out of that cell they all pretty much agreed that no-one should have to endure what they had (again for only a day or two).
Being stripped, humiliated, shaved, kept for periods in sensory deprivation chambers, enduring sexual threats, having all civil liberties taken away it was horrific.
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 17:29
by ICE-angel
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Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 18:15
by grim_tales
Not sure I agree with that - I belive it is a grave mistake to show that killing people is wrong, by killing people
Also what happens if a person gets the death penalty but then new evidence shows that they are innocent? Nothing will bring them back.
If people decide murder is a heinous crime (which it is, I'm not denying that) then punishing murder with another fprm of murder is surely hypocritical.
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 18:45
by Markgway
grim_tales wrote:Not sure I agree with that - I belive it is a grave mistake to show that killing people is wrong, by killing people
It's not to show that killing is wrong, which everyone except a psycho knows, but rather that it carries the severest penalty. You should know that if you take a life - which is all any of us ever has - you forfeit the right to yours. On that score I have no problem whatsoever... However as Grim points out:
Also what happens if a person gets the death penalty but then new evidence shows that they are innocent? Nothing will bring them back.
This is an unacceptable risk to take. To execute an innocent person is a thousand times worse than allowing a guilty person to live. That said, if prison sentences were apt then maybe there would be less need for the death penalty. When you see killers getting only a few years something is seiously wrong.
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 01:24
by ICE-angel
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Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 02:34
by Markgway
ICE-angel wrote:I'm not looking for retribution
Retribution is a very human need for victims. It's easy for those not affected by crime to act all non-judgemental. I know if something happened to me or my family (God forbid) I would want or take revenge. Only the law seperates us from vigilanteism. But what happens when the law fails?
What do you if you're attacked by a wild beast, you build a cage for it and feed it ? Come on. What's next, you'd start hearing to it complaining about how the cage is too tight and could have a color TV ?
Good analogy.
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 08:10
by ghevans
All fair points about the prison system - but the programme i was talking about specifically wasnt about a standard prison but the setup at Guantanamo through which the US tortured and interrogated "suspects" of terrorism.
A lot of whom, as we have come to know were rounded up with little or no evidence to suggest they were terrorists. After all the UK suspects captured were eventually released and no charges were made against them whatsoever.
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 11:30
by Yi-Long
There was a newsitem on belgium tv this morning thatw as also about the abuses at QB, where they again spoke of prostitues being brought in to humiliate, ridicule, harress the prisoners etc. They (yankees) also did stuff like wrapping the KORAN inside the Israeli flag etc etc...
Ofcourse, this is all next to the physicall abuse, as well as these people still having been arrested at pretty much random (say if I dont like Mark, and a yankee soldier asked me who I suspected of taliban, mark would have been picked up, locked up and tortured -sorry mark- for something I said. that would have been their only reason for picking mark up. Meanwhile, ofcourse, I'm driving in mark's car (or bicycle) and courting his girlfriend (or pet-rabbit)...
This is just one of those cases that in 30-40 years EVERYONE will say the Yankkes did VERY bad, and violated human rights and abused their power etc. Ofcourse, right now, most governments look the other way and pretend the USA does nothing wrong...
It's always fun to know your own country is led by a bunch of immoral gutless corrupt bastards who care more about economic relations, then simply doing what's right...
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 20:20
by Markgway
Yi-Long wrote:they again spoke of prostitues being brought in to humiliate, ridicule, harress the prisoners etc.
Sounds like any Red Light Zone to me.
They (yankees) also did stuff like wrapping the KORAN inside the Israeli flag etc etc...
Oh, the humanity!!! Seriously isn't getting the shit kicked out of you worse that wrapping a book up in a flag?
say if I dont like Mark, and a yankee soldier asked me who I suspected of taliban, mark would have been picked up, locked up and tortured -sorry mark- for something I said. that would have been their only reason for picking mark up.
Hey, why me??? To be honest, Yi-Long, I'm not overly convinced by this random argument. Sure an innocent can get caught up in bad shit, but I doubt any of these guys were truly innocent.
Meanwhile, ofcourse, I'm driving in mark's car (or bicycle) and courting his girlfriend (or pet-rabbit)...
Why would you court my pet Rabbitt? Is there something you want to tell us, Yi?
This is just one of those cases that in 30-40 years EVERYONE will say the Yankkes did VERY bad, and violated human rights and abused their power etc. Ofcourse, right now, most governments look the other way and pretend the USA does nothing wrong...
Torturing prisoners is wrong. But isn't America trying to right some wrongs by prosecuting their own soldiers for commiting abusive acts? Would the other side do that? It's democracy that allows for such accountability.
It's always fun to know your own country is led by a bunch of immoral gutless corrupt bastards who care more about economic relations, then simply doing what's right...
They should put that on the Dutch tourism brochure...
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 23:36
by Yi-Long
Markgway wrote:Yi-Long wrote:they again spoke of prostitues being brought in to humiliate, ridicule, harress the prisoners etc.
Sounds like any Red Light Zone to me.
Ow yeah, and that's ok cause these are guys and there's no such thing as guys not wanting sex or guys that don't like to be touched by other women etc... (!)
They (yankees) also did stuff like wrapping the KORAN inside the Israeli flag etc etc...
Oh, the humanity!!! Seriously isn't getting the shit kicked out of you worse that wrapping a book up in a flag?
Well... I guess for very religious people it could be offensive. Personally, I'm not religious, but I guess you can compare it with people photoshopping your mom's face on a picture of a girl giving head to a donkey or something.
say if I dont like Mark, and a yankee soldier asked me who I suspected of taliban, mark would have been picked up, locked up and tortured -sorry mark- for something I said. that would have been their only reason for picking mark up.
Hey, why me??? To be honest, Yi-Long, I'm not overly convinced by this random argument. Sure an innocent can get caught up in bad shit, but I doubt any of these guys were truly innocent.
Actually, if you had watched a couple of documentaries (dont know if they were shown in England, because you have Blair and all supporting this shite), but there have already been numerous documentaries reporting that many of these detainees were pretty much picked up 'at random' because so and so said they were taliban. You also saw a guy returning home from QB, bringing the reporters to his house, trying to get backhis shop, and showing the reporters his secret stash of USA moveis, like titanic: turned out he really liked american culture and movies etc, and was in fact hiding it from the taliban... guess they took the wrong guy, huh!?
Meanwhile, ofcourse, I'm driving in mark's car (or bicycle) and courting his girlfriend (or pet-rabbit)...
Why would you court my pet Rabbitt? Is there something you want to tell us, Yi?
Well... after sex I usually get a bit hungry... so... you know...
This is just one of those cases that in 30-40 years EVERYONE will say the Yankkes did VERY bad, and violated human rights and abused their power etc. Ofcourse, right now, most governments look the other way and pretend the USA does nothing wrong...
Torturing prisoners is wrong. But isn't America trying to right some wrongs by prosecuting their own soldiers for commiting abusive acts? Would the other side do that? It's democracy that allows for such accountability.
Actually, it's a case of trying to cover up their nazi-like policy on how to treat terrorisme suspects, by scape-goating a couple of soldiers who were only following orders (they still deserve punishment ofcourse). Have any of the commanding officers stood trial? No! This isnt a case of random idiots taking potshots at prisoners:It's standard procedure. This has already been noticed and noted and reported by many different human rights groups and ex-prisoners and lawyers and many many more... This is how the yankees treat arab/islamic prisoners when they suspect them of terrorisme...
I don't really know why you would start a discussion about this subject, when it's clear you havent really donemuch research on the matter, just a prejudiced opinion.
It's always fun to know your own country is led by a bunch of immoral gutless corrupt bastards who care more about economic relations, then simply doing what's right...
They should put that on the Dutch tourism brochure...
They should. It would go nicely with the prostituting and free drugs policy etc... Our goverment has no concience and/or morals. As long as they make money of it, drugs and selling ur body to married men are OK I guess... (but that's a whole other discssion...)
Posted: 03 Mar 2005, 01:22
by Markgway
Yi-Long wrote:Ow yeah, and that's ok cause these are guys and there's no such thing as guys not wanting sex or guys that don't like to be touched by other women etc... (!)
It was an OBVIOUS joke and you know it. Can't believe you chose to offer such a serious relpy. You think I meant it? No one should be forced into any kind of sexual activity.
Well... I guess for very religious people it could be offensive. Personally, I'm not religious, but I guess you can compare it with people photoshopping your mom's face on a picture of a girl giving head to a donkey or something.
I didn't say it wasn't offensive. Although the "Mom-Donkey" thing sounds worse because it's personal. But I'd rather that than get my head kicked in. In your previous post you made it sound like wrapping a book in a flag is worse than the physical abuse.
Actually, if you had watched a couple of documentaries (dont know if they were shown in England, because you have Blair and all supporting this shite), but there have already been numerous documentaries reporting that many of these detainees were pretty much picked up 'at random' because so and so said they were taliban.
I meant of the detainees at Guantanomo Bay, not every Muslim who was arrested. Of course some of those guys were just being questioned. Hopefully.
You also saw a guy returning home from QB, bringing the reporters to his house, trying to get backhis shop, and showing the reporters his secret stash of USA moveis, like titanic: turned out he really liked american culture and movies etc, and was in fact hiding it from the taliban... guess they took the wrong guy, huh!?
Yeah, but was he beaten and abused? Or just interogated? If they let the guy go it doesn't sound like he was unfairly treated. Wrong place wrong time. But I'm skeptical that even the U.S would risk International incident by purposely throwing random Muslims into Guantanomo.
Well... after sex I usually get a bit hungry... so... you know...
Eating pet Rabbitt! Shame on you!! Everyone lock up your kittens!!!
Actually, it's a case of trying to cover up their nazi-like policy on how to treat terrorisme suspects, by scape-goating a couple of soldiers who were only following orders (they still deserve punishment ofcourse). Have any of the commanding officers stood trial? No! This isnt a case of random idiots taking potshots at prisoners:It's standard procedure. This has already been noticed and noted and reported by many different human rights groups and ex-prisoners and lawyers and many many more... This is how the yankees treat arab/islamic prisoners when they suspect them of terrorisme...
Those are fair points. To blame only selected soldiers (ie. ones dumb enough to be caught in the photos) smacks of scapegoating. We need to brings the upper command to justice and ensure that these tactics become a thing of the past.
I don't really know why you would start a discussion about this subject, when it's clear you havent really donemuch research on the matter, just a prejudiced opinion.
Yi-Long, there is no one more prejudiced than you. As far back as I can remember you have been hating the "Yankees" with left-wing aplomb. But, hey, that's OK then isn't it? As soon as anyone questions this they become racist, prejudiced or ignorant. Nice.
It would go nicely with the prostituting and free drugs policy etc...
Free drugs???
As long as they make money of it, drugs and selling ur body to married men are OK I guess... (but that's a whole other discssion...)
You could start one. I never get tired of your facist rants.
