Europe unites to deplore Swiss ban on minarets

[bradavon]

The article's title, not mine:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 937486.ece

Disgusting. Freedom of Expression, only when it suits the majority! That said (unlike The UK) it's good to see the word of the people being listed to, even if it's intolerability xenophobic.

You wanted something to discuss Salty, here's a good one.

[Markgway]

Good for Switzerland.

[bradavon]

And good for freedom of expression too?

[romerojpg]

Good for Switzerland.

Seconded.

[thelostdragon]

Good for Switzerland.

Seconded.

What good is it for Switzerland? I mean how does it make Switzerland a better place?

[Yi-Long]

It's ridiculous and xenophobic, and purely intended to piss off muslims.

Not really interested in getting into a whole big debate about it. Already did so on a Dutch forum, where there are also more than enough dumbasses who applaud this kinda thing ...

[bradavon]

What good is it for Switzerland? I mean how does it make Switzerland a better place?

To keep the terrorists out of course .

[Yi-Long]

Yeah, speaking of terrorists, as of tomorrow, all of the bank-traffic information in Europe will be open for the yankees to monitor....(!)

Who needs terrorists if we give away all our rights, privacy and freedoms ourselfs!?

[Shingster]

Seeing as I come from a town where there are more Muslim temples with Minarets than there are branches of McDonalds, I've got to ask: What's the big deal about them?

[Yi-Long]

Seeing as I come from a town where there are more Muslim temples with Minarets than there are branches of McDonalds, I've got to ask: What's the big deal about them?

They're 'scary'.

[Markgway]

And good for freedom of expression too?

Yes. The people were given a vote. Something that would never happen in Britain. It's called democracy.

What good is it for Switzerland? I mean how does it make Switzerland a better place?

Sometimes it's about setting a principle... The Swiss don't want to see Islamic minarets in their country. That's fair enough. Can't say I'd want to see one outside my window. No one is talking about closing Mosques or preventing peaceful worship.

It's ridiculous and xenophobic, and purely intended to piss off muslims.

Xenophobic? How exactly? Aren't most Muslims in Switzerland Swiss? Xenophobia is a fear of foreigners not a dislike of religion (general or specific). I would happily vote in favour of any measure which reduces the visible presence of religion in the UK (and that includes Islam).

Yeah, speaking of terrorists, as of tomorrow, all of the bank-traffic information in Europe will be open for the yankees to monitor....(!)

Careful. That almost sounded xenophobic.

Seeing as I come from a town where there are more Muslim temples with Minarets than there are branches of McDonalds, I've got to ask: What's the big deal about them?

I'm guessing it's the symbolism rather than a pathological hatred of towers.

[grim_tales]

A minaret is a Turkish/Muslim symbol, no? And it's a Turkish building. Europe is supposed to be multi cultural and this will just piss people off. How is this good for Switzerland?

[gasteropod]

Shouldn't Turkish buildings stay in Turkey? What's the point in the whole world looking the same, I'd rather have a reason to visit foreign countries.

[grim_tales]

Agree on the second point.

[thelostdragon]

Shouldn't Turkish buildings stay in Turkey? What's the point in the whole world looking the same, I'd rather have a reason to visit foreign countries.

Uhm, the guys aren't building minarets on every corner, tearing down Swiss buildings. You believe Switzerland will look like Turkey due to a couple of Minarets?
Jordan doesn't look European only because there are a couple of churches.

[grim_tales]

The minarets are only towers from which people are called to prayer (right?) Should we stop church bells as they originally called people to prayer?!

[Markgway]

Europe is supposed to be multi cultural and this will just piss people off. How is this good for Switzerland?

Who will it piss off? A tiny number of vocal Muslims. I expect most Muslims couldn't give a shit as long as they have a place to pray (and they can do that anywhere really). And who decided Europe was multi-cultural? If I go to France I want it to be French... and if I go to Germany I want it to be German. If I want to see Turkish-style buildings guess were I would go...? Clue: Not Switzerland.

You believe Switzerland will look like Turkey due to a couple of Minarets?

One step at a time. You start with one minaret... then two... then 'we' need more... and if 'you' don't approve then you're an Islamophobe (buzz word of the moment). There should be less religion in modern society not more. But if Islamic countries want to build a thousand minarets then that's their business. They should respect that the Swiss don't want that. Europe is made up of primarily Christian countries. Their tolerance allows other religions their place. Isn't that enough? What right do Muslims have to demand minarets in the first place?

Jordan doesn't look European only because there are a couple of churches.

That's entirely up to the people of Jordan. If they want to prevent Church bells from ringing or what have you that's entirely up to them. Jordan is an Islamic country. Can you imagine a Christian movement making demands in Jordan? They'd be told to 'fuck off'. If I moved to Jordan I'd live by its culture and practice my religion as allowed by the majority. Obvioulsy I'm not religious so that's a hypothetical statement before anyone asks.

[grim_tales]

Well yeah but its not like the whole country is filled with minarets It can still be recognisably Swiss I'm sure.
When tourists come to Britain/London they look at the London landmarks etc, its still London even if there are religious buildings there.

[Yi-Long]

Don't muslim people also pay taxes, just as much as christian people, or atheist!?
When you live in Holland, Germany, France, Switzerland, or wherever, and you are part of the country and part of the people and you pay your taxes etc, you shouldn't be forbidden to also have your own buildings, as far as I'm concerned.

We ARE a multicultural Europe, no matter if we like it or not. It's only normal that with new residents we also see that reflected in the buildings we have in our society. Yeah, now it's 'new' to us. In 300 years, they're historic buildings and a sign of these times when people came to our countries, integrated, and we became a multi-cultural society.

Personaly, I'm not religious, as we all know. However, I respect that many people are religious, and with that comes places for them to go and prey to their God, whichever God that might be, and different clothing and rituals etc.

As long as religion doesn't affect the individual freedoms of other people, I don't care. Let them have their Mosques, their Minarets, their churches, their temples, whatever.

We have many MANY muslim people in our countries, and it shouldn't be a problem at all if they have some of their own buildings which they feel good and happy about. Why not!?

[romerojpg]

Well personally I wish all religious buildings were knocked to the ground, but that vote will never come to be, but if it does in Switzerland I will move there. Bullshit religion and a waste of trillions.

[Markgway]

Don't muslim people also pay taxes, just as much as christian people, or atheist!? When you live in Holland, Germany, France, Switzerland, or wherever, and you are part of the country and part of the people and you pay your taxes etc, you shouldn't be forbidden to also have your own buildings, as far as I'm concerned.

But why should a majority of taxpayers put up with something they evidently don't want? The Swiss majority have a right to say 'we don't like minarets'. It's democratic freedom of expression. You may disagree with them but that's neither here nor there. It works both ways. If a Muslim majority in Iraq voted to prohibit or reduce Christian symbolism that would be their right. I wouldn't go to Iraq and demand anything of them - not least religious concession. It would be different if we were talking about a European country banning the practice of religion - but then that's something your more likely to see in a Muslim country. The least tolerant of any major religion.

We ARE a multicultural Europe, no matter if we like it or not.

The UK was a Christian country for hundreds of years until the notion of multi-culturalism was foisted upon 'us' by successive liberal governments. I keep hearing from politicians that 'we' are multi-cultural. Strange. I really don't remember anyone getting a vote on it. Social engineering has decreed multi-cultralism the new model and anyone who disagrees is branded.

Personaly, I'm not religious, as we all know. However, I respect that many people are religious, and with that comes places for them to go and prey to their God, whichever God that might be, and different clothing and rituals etc.

Who is stopping religious people from praying? You can do that in your backyard if it takes your fancy. That Muslims were even allowed to build Mosques shows how tolerant Christians are. Muslims are not persecuted in any Christian country. You make them sound hard done by.

As long as religion doesn't affect the individual freedoms of other people, I don't care. Let them have their Mosques, their Minarets, their churches, their temples, whatever. We have many MANY muslim people in our countries, and it shouldn't be a problem at all if they have some of their own buildings which they feel good and happy about. Why not!?

What about the freedom not to see your country change into something you don't like? It's like if a friend offered me a place to stay and I went in and started redecorating so that I could feel more at home. Maybe my friend doesn't want that? Maybe he liked his home the way it was? Maybe my 'rights' affect what he wants. Can you imagine if I moved to Saudi Arabia and built The House of Scotland? The whole thing being saltires and tartan. You think the locals would be pleased as punch? "I say isn't it wonderful to see such multicultral freedom?". Not a chance. And who could blame them? Now if a Swiss majority voted against the ban that would be entirely up to them. But they didn't so deal with it.

Funny thing is I don't feel strongly about minarets. But when I hear bleating about multi-culturalism and islamophobia or freedom of religion etc it drags the anger out of me. I wouldn't have started this thread but I felt the need to respond to it.

[grim_tales]

Isn't Switzerland secular though, not Christian per se (just like UK?)? Although, Islam is the 2nd most represented religion in Switzerland behind Christianity. There are 400,000 Muslims but just 4 minarets, hardly a big number.
Building the House of Scotland isnt the same as a church/mosque or something as one is just cultural.

[bradavon]

Yes. The people were given a vote. Something that would never happen in Britain. It's called democracy.

How is a ban ever freedom of expression? Obviously I take your point but it's not freedom of expression but is democratic. I've already commented about how it wouldn't happen here, agreed on that one.

Can't say I'd want to see one outside my window.

Why? It's not as if they're ugly on the eye. You're as xenophobic as Romero sometimes.

Xenophobic? How exactly? Aren't most Muslims in Switzerland Swiss? Xenophobia is a fear of foreigners not a dislike of religion (general or specific).

You can be Arabic-Swiss Mark, as an example and yes it is a fear of foreigners. Your nationality is merely what your passport says.

I would happily vote in favour of any measure which reduces the visible presence of religion in the UK (and that includes Islam).

Like there'd ever be a vote to ban church spirals.

Shouldn't Turkish buildings stay in Turkey? What's the point in the whole world looking the same, I'd rather have a reason to visit foreign countries.

There's only 4 in the whole of Swittzerland Gas. Why should they stay in Turkey? Because the world's been heavily multicultural for decades now. It's only natural people who're religious should want a place to worship in.

Can you imagine a Christian movement making demands in Jordan? They'd be told to 'fuck off'.

That doesn't mean we should be doing the same.

Don't forget their are roughly 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland of a population of roughly 7 million, that's not a minority.

[bradavon]

And who decided Europe was multi-cultural? If I go to France I want it to be French... and if I go to Germany I want it to be German.

Hundreds of years of migration and colonisim. You forget the British people have made entire countries white, taking their culture with them and in a much stronger manner than Islam has ever achieved.

There should be less religion in modern society not more.

No there should be tolerance. Having come back from India recently it was such a joy to come across in only 3 weeks 5 religions and all of them managing to coexist without problem, for the most part.

General comment: I've never understood why tolerance is so hard for some people to grasp and that very much includes the intolerance in certain aspects of Islam too. I said once: "I'd love to meet a Black Female Gay Muslim. That would be cool. Fuck with the world's ridiculous prejudices".

People thought I was joking. I wasn't.

[Yi-Long]

Brad, you need to fix your quotes. You're putting words in my mouth that Mark said.