Holland hates Muslims, Arabs hate the Jewish...

[Yi-Long]

This news kinda shocked me, about how many people in Holland have a bad feeling about muslims... I already knew Holland was getting more and more racist, which is why (among some other stuff, like highest taxes, most taxes, corrupt goverment etc etc) already decided that I'd emigrate ASAP (I'll be getting some beige, brown-haired kids in a few years... so not really interested in seeing them grow up in a racist society with a bad economy), but that it's 51%, is just shocking.
Ofcourse, the opinion is influenced by the widespread (over-the-top) media attention that Maroccan youth is getting (it IS a problem, but not a bigger problem then say, drunken farmboys who go out drinking and fighting every weekend) plus the Van Gogh slaughter ofcourse, which really was so grueling that everybody went like :'what the fuck?!?!?' , but still...
For years Holland was an educated country who could still have rational thought etc. It seems all gone now.

I'm very relieved to see some other countries being a lot more 'open' and accepting to other religions and their followers, like The USA (which DID surprise me, because many, including myself, felt that Bush' victory was because of a huge part of the USA being afraid of terrorisme, and muslims...), Great Brittain (not sure if this poll was held before or after the London Bombings), and Canada (not surprising really, is it?)

What's even MORE shocking (if possible) are the numbers of the middle-east, about Christians and Jewish people. Ofcourse I know that the whole Israel-Palestina thing is heavily responsible for this, but still... 100% of Jordanese and 99% of Lebanese seem to seriously dislike the Jewish...

I seriously hope the progress that seems to be happening between Israel and Palestina, and more and more access to world-media, will in a few years get those minds more open so they can also see not every jewish person agrees with Israel's treatment of Palestina, not every christian is a mumbling idiot who is against condoms, or whatever... etc etc.

But damn, still shocking. For many of us, especially on this board where we watch all kinds of cinema and most of us have a pretty open mind and all because we have gotten in touch with other cultures etc, it must seem like a bit incredible that there are still so damn many people that only seem to be in their own little world, their own little culture, and condemn everything that's different. I'm sure in a few more years/decades (unless any more huge western vs arabic) wars or something break out), it will get better. Indian's movie industry seems to get more westernized and 'open', with women playing stronger roles, and perhaps even gays in roles (not sure, believe I read there were now gays in some movies/series) etc etc (many arabic countries like Indian movies I believe, not 100% sure).


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[Mordib]

as usual with these things, the simplest thing you can look to to calm your fears is where those statistics came from and how they were gained. Can you remember being asked for example, or anyone you know? who collected the stats and who was paying them to do so and what was the objective of the research?

I am guesssing the clearest difference between the countries was simply how the question was asked given language differences? the questions 'do you approve of' and 'do you dislike' can both be used for the same survey but can elicit totally different answers.

m.

[bradavon]

Exactly Mordib.

I'm not sure I agree with your post title though:

"Holland hates Muslims, Arabs hate the Jewish..."

Are you saying all true Dutch people are Christian?

[Mordib]

i must confess, the title makes everything very unclear... is it saying that 50%+ of all mslims hate holland or that 50%+ of holland hates muslims... and why hate??

[Markgway]

[What's even MORE shocking (if possible) are the numbers of the middle-east, about Christians and Jewish people. Ofcourse I know that the whole Israel-Palestina thing is heavily responsible for this, but still... 100% of Jordanese and 99% of Lebanese seem to seriously dislike the Jewish...

I think this is SHOCKING only to you, mate.... The Middle East in 2005 is the most racist place on the planet.

Christian haters: Turkey, Pakistan, Morocco, China.

Jew haters: Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco, China.

Muslim haters: Germany, Netherlands, China. (I guess nobody asked Israel??)

Still, you have to hand it to China -- they hate EVERYBODY.

The UK and US get most of the criticism from the left for being racist, xenaphobic, intolerant, blah-blah, yet their scores are among the most impressive. Almost makes you glad to be British...

[grim_tales]

True. However with UK/US/Canada/France etc the scores for the Muslim part of the survey aren't as unanamous (sp?) as the ones for Christians/Jews it would seem.
But still better than the others like Turkey or Morroco.

[Yi-Long]

Exactly Mordib.

I'm not sure I agree with your post title though:

"Holland hates Muslims, Arabs hate the Jewish..."

Are you saying all true Dutch people are Christian?

Why would -I-, who is an extreme non-believer, say something like that?
How the hell would you even get thát conclusion from the thread-title?

[romerojpg]

Why are you lot even talking about it?
as really everyones very different and they can say what they want, as its only a dip in the pond and surveys are deceptive in the extreem and probibly as acturate as a sniper on a trampoline.

[bradavon]

The idea Indonesia could hate Muslims is funny in itself.

I'm a little surprised Holland hate Muslims so much (going by this survey alone) considering Indonesia is an ex-colonial power for Holland but that probably doesn't mean shit anymore.

Canada (not surprising really, is it?)

Why?

sniper on a trampoline.

Why would -I-, who is an extreme non-believer, say something like that?
How the hell would you even get thát conclusion from the thread-title?

My bad I misread the title. I've re-read it now.

I'm very relieved to see some other countries being a lot more 'open' and accepting to other religions and their followers, like The USA

The USA is one of the most multicultural countries in the world.

[Yi-Long]

The idea Indonesia could hate Muslims is funny in itself.

I'm a little surprised Holland hate Muslims so much (going by this survey alone) considering Indonesia is an ex-colonial power for Holland but that probably doesn't mean shit anymore.

Yeah we (the Dutch) have pretty much forgotten about that whole Indonesian colonial thingy etc... so we dont really have a bond with it anymore...

Canada (not surprising really, is it?)

Why?

Cause Canada is generally known as a pretty good-natured country, where many different cultures live happily together without much, if any, incidents... Their common enemy is rabid penguings probably, so that should bond them I guess...

Why would -I-, who is an extreme non-believer, say something like that?
How the hell would you even get thát conclusion from the thread-title?

My bad I misread the title. I've re-read it now.

That's OK dear... seems many of my posts are being misread or misunderstood lately... probably something to do with my keyboard or something...

I'm very relieved to see some other countries being a lot more 'open' and accepting to other religions and their followers, like The USA

The USA is one of the most multicultural countries in the world.

I know, but instead of keeping in touch with their OWN culture, many of these cultures adapt to 'AMERICAN' culture, so many black people don't know shit about their history or about Africa etc, many chinese youth just play videogames instead of reading or leaarning about their own culture etc, so ofcourse that's not gonna be a big integrating-problem, as everyone seems to adapt to the same lifestyle...

I was surprised because apart from the east- and westcoast, there's a huge part in the middle of America where there are many scared white people who (as they mostly vote for Dubya and other conservative politicians) seem to be affraid of muslims and other non-american things... so I was a bit surprised and relieved to still see a postive thing come out of this poll...

[bradavon]

Yeah we (the Dutch) have pretty much forgotten about that whole Indonesian colonial thingy etc... so we dont really have a bond with it anymore...

That's a pity. It's not that way in the UK in the case of White and Indian heritage.

Tika Messarla (sp?) is the number 1 British dish in the country and has been for some time.

Their common enemy is rabid penguings probably, so that should bond them I guess...

Huh?

there's a huge part in the middle of America where there are many scared white people

I'm betting the pole never asked them though.

You're very right American culture is more oppressive (not intentionally) to non-American culture than say the UK is. The large Indian and say Chinese cultures are very much in touch with their roots (or so I believe).

I remember discussing this with my American friend while in America on holiday, she said the same.

[brassmonkey001]

Penguins?!?! In Canada?!?!?!!!111 :blob4:

[Markgway]

...instead of keeping in touch with their OWN culture, many of these cultures adapt to 'AMERICAN' culture, so many black people don't know shit about their history or about Africa etc

Erm, isn't "American" their culture? Unless you're talking about kids born and raised in Africa then coming over as students? I think it's insulting to assume that any black face must be somehow a mere step away from a Zulu warrior. Truth is: in spite of the whole African-American thang, which is done to death, a large percentage of the genetic make-up for this ethnicity is not pure African or anything close. It's a mixture of races blended thru the last century or two, and including, yes how awful, caucasians. The number of white masters who impregnated slave girls changed the genesis of what you would call "Black America". So to assume that these kids of today are anything other than American is really quite ridiculous. It's like me calling myself Irish-Scots because my great grandparents came from Ireland. That was a long time ago. Maybe I should pin a Shamrock to my head and bleat on about my Leprechaun brothers?? Black-American culture has absolutely no relation to African culture and I'm sure most Africans find Americans utterly alien to their own way of life.

[Guest]

...instead of keeping in touch with their OWN culture, many of these cultures adapt to 'AMERICAN' culture, so many black people don't know shit about their history or about Africa etc

Erm, isn't "American" their culture? Unless you're talking about kids born and raised in Africa then coming over as students? I think it's insulting to assume that any black face must be somehow a mere step away from a Zulu warrior. Truth is: in spite of the whole African-American thang, which is done to death, a large percentage of the genetic make-up for this ethnicity is not pure African or anything close. It's a mixture of races blended thru the last century or two, and including, yes how awful, caucasians. The number of white masters who impregnated slave girls changed the genesis of what you would call "Black America". So to assume that these kids of today are anything other than American is really quite ridiculous. It's like me calling myself Irish-Scots because my great grandparents came from Ireland. That was a long time ago. Maybe I should pin a Shamrock to my head and bleat on about my Leprechaun brothers?? Black-American culture has absolutely no relation to African culture and I'm sure most Africans find Americans utterly alien to their own way of life.

That's not what I meant Mark. I mean here in Holland most cultures tend to stick in their 'own' cultural box, so the chinese feel themself Chinese first, Dutch second: they mainly have chinese friends, stay in close contact with their families over here, watch many chinese tapes, mainly speak chinese at home and with their friends, often visist HK, etc etc. Maroccans feel maroccan first, dutch second, Turks feel Turk first, Dutch second...
That doesnt seem to be the case in America. Once they're in America, they FEEL American first...
So that's what I meant.
America really is a melting pot. Holland is just a buffet with many different recipes, but they're still on different plates it seems...
I, as a dutch guy, just visit all the recipes on the buffet: I have chinese friends, suriname friends, afghani friends, etc etc. I grew up in a multi-culture neighbourhood and in a multiculture family, so I'm not really all that prejudiced against other races, cause I know most of them (not to say you can judge a race on a few individuals, good OR bad). Many Dutch kinda keep away from non-dutch people. Not out of racisme perse, but also cause many Dutch are a bit on their own and more distant...

Ow, and I actually said it's a GOOD thing that all races in America think of themselfs as AMERICANS first, Pakistani/African/Japanese/whatever second.

I didnt attack them on not being in touch with their own culture, I merely acknowledged the fact...

[Yi-Long]

The above post was by me btw... Sometimes I forget I'm not on my own computer so I'm not logged in ...

[bradavon]

Black-American culture has absolutely no relation to African culture and I'm sure most Africans find Americans utterly alien to their own way of life.

I completely agree but try telling that to the millions of black Americans who very strongly consider themselves "African Americans".

I only heard it the other week during Live 8 . Some rapper saying Africans are his brothers.

Which even "I" found insulting. To think he has anything in common with the starving people of Africa or even African culture. Rap and hip-hop music is as far removed from African music as you can get.

[Markgway]

...That doesnt seem to be the case in America. Once they're in America, they FEEL American first...

Isn't that a good thing? That people regardless of race and background can be united by a common culture? I wish Britain was more like that and less segregated with minority ghettos popping up all over England. (Scotland like Ireland has much less a percentage of minorities)

Ow, and I actually said it's a GOOD thing that all races in America think of themselfs as AMERICANS first, Pakistani/African/Japanese/
whatever second.

I guess I misunderstood you then... again??

[Markgway]

I completely agree but try telling that to the millions of black Americans who very strongly consider themselves "African Americans". I only heard it the other week during Live 8 . Some rapper saying Africans are his brothers. Which even "I" found insulting. To think he has anything in common with the starving people of Africa or even African culture. Rap and hip-hop music is as far removed from African music as you can get.

Exactly. It's the kind of crap that has unfortunately come to symbolise Black-America. The media churns it out and the public swallows it whole. I have more in common with Africans than Americans do. I too hate rap music. :shock:

[bradavon]

To be far it's not just Black culture.

Irish Americans are barely Irish anymore, Hispanic Americans are barely Spanish.

Isn't that a good thing? That people regardless of race and background can be united by a common culture? I wish Britain was more like that and less segregated with minority ghettos popping up all over England. (Scotland like Ireland has much less a percentage of minorities)

I'd say No . It's inevitable when one culture (greatly) overpowers another but no I'd say it's not a good thing.

The good thing would be if each culture knew their roots and saw to keep them BUT at the same time respected other cultures.

Sure it's by no means perfect in Britain but I'd prefer it this way and than the American system of dissemination.

Native American culture was almost wiped out (as were Native Americans). The same has has happened in Australia. It's saddening to think what Australia would been today if Europeans hadn't arrived.

Scotland like Ireland has much less a percentage of minorities.

The English were the driving force behind colonisation. The Scottish sure helped out too though. I'd actually put Scotland in a similar category to Wales.

Ireland is different. It's only been 10-15 since the EU gave millions of Euros to help Ireland recover from being classified as a third world country (that's not the correct term). It used to be a very poor country but has since done a remarkable U-Turn.

[Markgway]

To be far it's not just Black culture. Irish Americans are barely Irish anymore, Hispanic Americans are barely Spanish.

I'm not so sure... the Irish and, especially, Hispanic communities are often quite close to their origins. At the rate the illegal Mexicans flood the US border, California will be a majority Hispanic state within 50 years. These are all first/second generation Hispanics. Most Black-Americans couldn't find Africa on a fucking map!!

I'd say No . It's inevitable when one culture (greatly) overpowers another but no I'd say it's not a good thing. The good thing would be if each culture knew their roots and saw to keep them BUT at the same time respected other cultures.

That can't work and never will. At best some kind of toleration is reached and preserved. But respect? Nah. Culture must be dictated by country not race. This whole idea of multi-culturalism is frankly the biggest load of PC arse I've ever heard.

Native American culture was almost wiped out (as were Native Americans). The same has has happened in Australia. It's saddening to think what Australia would been today if Europeans hadn't arrived.

That's not quite the same though. America today is nothing like it was when the natives were thrown out. Their culture was destroyed by incomers. What I'm talking about is the pre-existing American culture of 2005 encompassing every race and religion. If you don't want to be an American why live there? I wouldn't move to Africa just to turn my neighbourhood into little Scotland. I'd embrace African culture. Otherwise why be there?

[bradavon]

Good point on your last paragraph.

This whole idea of multi-culturalism is frankly the biggest load of PC arse I've ever heard.

I partly agree but the sentiment is right and for that reason alone it's worth keeping up with.