The Leaders' Debates

[bradavon]

How many people don't have Sky 1 these days!why shouldn't Sky get one of the debates?

Millions. You have to pay for Sky or Cable to get it. And that's why an election debate shouldn't be given to a subscription channel. As Romero says though, it will be on BBC News 24 after. I wonder if in full though?

As you are the new David Dimbledy and BNB Political guru then care to explain to us numpties the difference between the three main parties?

That's twisting what I said. I don't proclaim to be an expert but likewise I don't go around saying "they're all the same", when a numptie can see, that's patently incorrect.

i do...Labour.Even though they are going to lose.

Fair enough then.

I agree with Sam though thats its not as if the country was "much" better under the conservative government, the moaning about Broken Britain (as if its unique to Labour) just really annoys me for example though like all of you I hate evil stuff happening.

True but I also believe only Salty easy is really qualified to state an opinion. We're all too young to remember.

Sky1 is hardly a PPV channel, its part of the basic Sky package.

Bad choice of words but people keep claiming "all you need is a basic Sky package" is rich. You need:

1. A 12 month contract
2. The funds to pay £18 a month. Hardly pocket change. That's significantly more on top of the TV TAX! Unless I'm mistake both you and Mark get Sky free.

[grim_tales]

Good point about some of us being too young to really remember. When I was a kid/growing up I didnt pay as much attention to that

[Markgway]

In my defence I thought SKY 1 was available on Freeview. They should've put the debate on SKY News in that case.

I think the Tories deserve a chance for at least one term. If after 4-5 years they prove to be as shit as Labour then the public can vote them out. I don't believe in this "better the devil you know" rubbish.

There's a double standard in play among Labour voters. Back in the 70s the Tories rescued Britain from a disasterous Labour government. Yet 20 years later all was forgiven when New Labour was voted in via landslide. Yet the very same New Labour supporters still hark back to the worst of the Tories era - as if the last 13 years hadn't happened. This is New Conservativism much as New Labour was "New". Don't they deserve the same second shot as Labour got?

[grim_tales]

Fair point.

[saltysam]

I think the Tories deserve a chance for at least one term. If after 4-5 years they prove to be as shit as Labour then the public can vote them out. I don't believe in this "better the devil you know" rubbish.

Like i've already said Cameron should be romping home in all the opinion polls.he isn't. You say that's because they keep messing up.If they are messing up while in opposition to a deeply unpopular government then what are they going to be like when in power ?

There's a double standard in play among Labour voters. Back in the 70s the Tories rescued Britain from a disasterous Labour government. Yet 20 years later all was forgiven when New Labour was voted in via landslide.

Thatcher was an awful PM who got lucky with the Falklands.If that hadn't happened she'd have been out on her arse after one term.

Yet the very same New Labour supporters still hark back to the worst of the Tories era - as if the last 13 years hadn't happened. This is New Conservativism much as New Labour was "New".

I'll say again-things were shit under Thatcher and then Major.if they were good years then i must've slept through them.

Don't they deserve the same second shot as Labour got?

That's up to the electorate.i'll never vote Tory but if Voters want to do so then fair enough.

[Shen]

Firstly I suggest that people read the manifestoes before claiming "they're all the same". It's the best way to find out the parties intended policies.
Secondly, This whole "LibDems wont get in so why should i vote for them" really doesn't make sense, of course they wont get in if people don't vote for them because of this reasoning. The UK runs on a First Past the Post system, simply the man with the most votes wins. Therefore if enough people vote for Clegg then, ta-dah, he will win. Sorry for the sarcasm but this kind of thinking really bewilders me.

I'm personally still not 100% sure on who I shall vote for though I'm still leaning towards the LibDems, I'm afraid I'm with Salty on the Tories, whilst some policies seem ok, I'm not sure in the long run that they will do much to help the poorer sectors of society, those with disabilities, the elderly etc. Their policies on work are pretty good, we do need to stop handing out money as freely as we do, but their reforms seem to me like they will push those who have a genuine reason to claim into work anyway, to meet targets, regardless of the pledges they make. Their reforms on crime are however very similar to the LibDems, and I agree with a number of policies, however the LibDems seem to go further in this area.

But with the Tories, although it's not a personality contest, David Cameron is just a smug bastard and comes across as really patronising and up himself.

[grim_tales]

I agree with Shen the Tories won't help disabled, old people etc. Also they'd bring back disgusting "sport" like fox hunting.

[Markgway]

You say that's because they keep messing up.If they are messing up while in opposition to a deeply unpopular government then what are they going to be like when in power ?

Not messing up in terms of policy but in public communication. The Tories have trouble getting their message across and convincing the public to trust them. That's not the same as saying they would make a mess of governing.

Thatcher was an awful PM who got lucky with the Falklands.If that hadn't happened she'd have been out on her arse after one term.

I think to say Thatcher was "lucky" with The Falklands is harsh. Wars put PMs under enormous pressure. See Tony Blair before Iraq and after. She just handled the situation the right way. Thatcher had a spine and commanded respect from her allies.

I'll say again-things were shit under Thatcher and then Major.if they were good years then i must've slept through them.

I said better. Good is subjective. You may not have liked what the Tories did, I'm sure I moaned about them when I was at school, but for me Labour in recent times has done worse. The country has been brought to its knees. How can that be better than giving the Tories another chance?

That's up to the electorate.i'll never vote Tory but if Voters want to do so then fair enough.

Is this about class prejudice? You wouldn't vote for the Tories because of their past, but no matter what Labour does is forgiven?

[Markgway]

their reforms seem to me like they will push those who have a genuine reason to claim into work anyway, to meet targets, regardless of the pledges they make.

Isn't that Labour you're talking about? My Dad is unable to work for health reasons (I'm not going to elaborate on the forum - but he can't work take my word for it) and yet THIS government has made him jump thru hoops. They hand out wads of cash to junkies and spongers (bonus extra if you hate Britain) and yet they screw every possible penny out of my dad. His sin? Working hard for years to earn a modest pension. He gets next to fuck all for disability. It's disgusting. That's just one reason why I hate this Labour government. They don't help the working class they help the under class and that's quite different.

I agree with Shen the Tories won't help disabled, old people etc. Also they'd bring back disgusting "sport" like fox hunting.

You see. There's one thing I strongly disagree with the Tories on. Lest anyone here think I'm a Tory buttboy.

[Shen]

Mark: I agree that under labour we aren't so much better off. I sadly have to claim incapacity benefit because my doctor thinks I am unfit to work, I too was made to jump through hoops to prove I was Ill enough to deserve it, whilst there are a number of people I know with nothing wrong with them who get money handed out to them like it was candy. However under Tories I don't think this will improve, the 'strict' measures they talk about imposing will likely mean that more people will have to jump through more hoops only to be told that they can work anyway. It's a complex issue and I'm not sure that any politician will adequately solve it, and it is just one aspect of a great deal of problems we have to address, I guess it's down to who can come through on the majority of important questions, rather than the specific ones we each want them to address.

[grim_tales]

I had to do that sort of thing to prove I could get DLA too Shen, filling in lots of forms etc, very annoying
Also Mark just to be clear I also strongly disagree with the Tories on their policies about fox hunting and disabled/sick people.

[bradavon]

@ Mark: Will you stop harping on about bloody class. You're obsessed with it. No one else on this forum (unless I'm mistaken?), including Salty, gives a fuck any more. You're such a Torrrie fanboy, you say one thing but your claims speak otherwise . There's nothing wrong with that but at least admit you are.

I'm a Lib Dem fanboy .

In my defence I thought SKY 1 was available on Freeview. They should've put the debate on SKY News in that case.

Agreed. It's clear they've done this to convince more to get Sky.

I think the Tories deserve a chance for at least one term. If after 4-5 years they prove to be as shit as Labour then the public can vote them out. I don't believe in this "better the devil you know" rubbish.

Agreed to an extent. I'd vote: Lib Dem, Torries and way down Labour. I'd never ever vote UKIP or BNP. I'm more likely to vote Green. Which would be a wasted vote.

Secondly, This whole "LibDems wont get in so why should i vote for them" really doesn't make sense, of course they wont get in if people don't vote for them because of this reasoning. The UK runs on a First Past the Post system, simply the man with the most votes wins. Therefore if enough people vote for Clegg then, ta-dah, he will win. Sorry for the sarcasm but this kind of thinking really bewilders me.

Exactly. Me too. I didn't realise the voting was that simple. That's simpler than The USA.

Their policies on work are pretty good, we do need to stop handing out money as freely as we do, but their reforms seem to me like they will push those who have a genuine reason to claim into work anyway, to meet targets, regardless of the pledges they make.

I can see this too. Also to show they're reversing the current trend, where you can get so many benefits, there's no reason for anyone to work really.

Their reforms on crime are however very similar to the LibDems, and I agree with a number of policies, however the LibDems seem to go further in this area.

Such as?

But with the Tories, although it's not a personality contest, David Cameron is just a smug bastard and comes across as really patronising and up himself.

I think he comes off well. I am a bit of a sucker for a good orator though.

Also they'd bring back disgusting "sport" like fox hunting.

Good point. I forgot that. Labour and Lib Dems won't.

You may not have liked what the Tories did, I'm sure I moaned about them when I was at school, but for me Labour in recent times has done worse.

I suggest you watch Andrew Mare's a "Modern History of Britain". You'll see the Torries were quite capable of crumbling Britain too. You've got a really rosey memory of the Torries in power. They both as bad as each other, given long enough to fuck things up.

[grim_tales]

You mean Andrew Marr I watched that series on TV, it was very good.

[bradavon]

My Mum's ex-partner (who she's still friends with), simply decided a few years back he no longer wants to work, so doesn't. He's in his 50s but perfectly healthy and capable of working. He does a couple hours a week in front of a laptop for a newspaper but that's it.

He gets his rent paid and enough benefits/low income allowance, simply not to bother.

You mean Andrew Marr I watched that series on TV, it was very good.

I couldn't be bothered to Google the spelling. It's an excellent series. There are so many BBC and C4 documentary series I'd buy on DVD, IF they ever released them. It's crazy.

[bradavon]

'You snivelling little dweeb!' Rock star Brian May's rant at fox-hunting Tory - Good on him:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... dweeb.html

Posh Toffs aside, is there even a big swell of support to repel the ban?

[bradavon]

It is Sky News:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politi ... ews_At_8pm

[Markgway]

@ Mark: Will you stop harping on about bloody class. You're obsessed with it. No one else on this forum (unless I'm mistaken?), including Salty, gives a fuck any more.

I suspect class is the real reason why Sam would NEVER vote Conservative. Therefore I felt it was a relevant point to make.

You're such a Torrrie fanboy, you say one thing but your claims speak otherwise . There's nothing wrong with that but at least admit you are.

I'm really not. I just think they deserve another chance. If they fuck up like Labour then I'll happily see them kicked out in 2014. I have no partisan loyalty.

I'm a Lib Dem fanboy .

We know.

I'd never ever vote UKIP or BNP.

Lol... I don't think it's fair to lump UKIP in with the BNP(!) I think Nigel Farrage is hilarious. I'd vote for him as my MP.

But with the Tories, although it's not a personality contest, David Cameron is just a smug bastard and comes across as really patronising and up himself.

I don't particularly see that myself.

Posh Toffs aside, is there even a big swell of support to repel the ban?

No.

[bradavon]

I just think they deserve another chance.

As it happens, so do I. Next to Lib Dems.

Lol... I don't think it's fair to lump UKIP in with the BNP(!) I think Nigel Farrage is hilarious. I'd vote for him as my MP.

He's bonkers . I only lumped them together as "parties I'd NEVER" vote for.

[saltysam]

I suspect class is the real reason why Sam would NEVER vote Conservative. Therefore I felt it was a relevant point to make.

No,i'm just old enough to remember the last Tory government, i'm a believer in the old adage that a leopard never changes it's spots.i weigh up things, i don't see what the tories would do for me if they got in.You say Labour has brought the country to it's knees,i say you are grossly exaggerating.in what way exactly have they done this?Sure things aren't good,there's a worldwide (not just UK) recession but i don't see what the tories would've done any better.i'm sorry about your dad's situation,my son has difficulties and has been forced to attend medicals etc. but i'd say the tories would be even stricter. they are a party of privilege hence their nod to the toffs in wanting to repeal the fox hunting laws.

But with the Tories, although it's not a personality contest, David Cameron is just a smug bastard and comes across as really patronising and up himself.

I don't particularly see that myself

i can see that a mile off.he's an arrogant bugger who always looks pleased with himself..

[grim_tales]

Was Nigel Farrage the bloke who ranted at another MEP saying he had the charisma of a damp rag?

[Markgway]

No,i'm just old enough to remember the last Tory government, i'm a believer in the old adage that a leopard never changes it's spots.

So why not hold Labour up to the same principle? Judging by what you're saying we should never ever trust Labour again regardless of how much time has passed and who the leader is.

i weigh up things, i don't see what the tories would do for me if they got in.

Fair enough. It's just when you said you would never vote Tory as though it were a matter of principle rather than an informed choice.

You say Labour has brought the country to it's knees,i say you are grossly exaggerating.in what way exactly have they done this?

Check out this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... itain.html

i'm sorry about your dad's situation,my son has difficulties and has been forced to attend medicals etc. but i'd say the tories would be even stricter.

...and if that turns out to be the case the public can vote for another party after one term. The proven disaster of a Labour government is worse to me than the possible disaster of a Tory replacement.

they are a party of privilege hence their nod to the toffs in wanting to repeal the fox hunting laws.

Which I strongly disagree with... but that's one law. The current law isn't even enforced.

i can see that a mile off.he's an arrogant bugger who always looks pleased with himself..

I think that's just his face.

[Markgway]

Was Nigel Farrage the bloke who ranted at another MEP saying he had the charisma of a damp rag?

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY

Genius.

[saltysam]

You say Labour has brought the country to it's knees,i say you are grossly exaggerating.in what way exactly have they done this?

Check out this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... itain.html.

clearly this Simon Heffer chap is completely unbiased and has no axe to grind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Heffer "He supports a free-market economy, and the abolition of the national minimum wage and believes benefits should be withdrawn from people who refuse jobs. He is in favour of the expansion of grammar schools. Heffer also is in favour of private firms running many aspects of the NHS, though unlike some right-wing commentators, he agrees with the retention of the NHS.

Heffer also supports the reintroduction of the death penalty and is socially conservative. In 1999 he opposed the removal of hereditary peers from the House of Lords. He supported the retention of Section 28, opposed the equalisation of the age of consent and the liberalisation of laws on abortion and divorce.[2] He has also written about the decline of tie-wearing among British men. In August 2002 Heffer blamed "liberal society" for the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman." Cameron should get this far right headcase on his campaign team. anyway where in that article is it proven Britain is on it's knees? blimey he criticises the no smoking in public places law...err... why?

[Markgway]

"He supports a free-market economy, and the abolition of the national minimum wage and believes benefits should be withdrawn from people who refuse jobs. He is in favour of the expansion of grammar schools. Heffer also is in favour of private firms running many aspects of the NHS, though unlike some right-wing commentators, he agrees with the retention of the NHS.

I'm not saying I subscribe to all of Heffer's politial views - personally I'm in favour of the minimum wage - but that doesn't make what he said in that article wrong or untrue.

Heffer also supports the reintroduction of the death penalty and is socially conservative. In 1999 he opposed the removal of hereditary peers from the House of Lords. He supported the retention of Section 28, opposed the equalisation of the age of consent and the liberalisation of laws on abortion and divorce.[2]

I too support the death penalty, but am against hereditary peers. I support the equalisation of the age of consent, but not the repeal of Section 28. I support the liberalisation of laws on divorce, but not on abortion.

He has also written about the decline of tie-wearing among British men.

That's not something that keeps me awake at night. Still can you imagine gangs causing bother outside McDonalds if they all wore suits, ties, and hats?

In August 2002 Heffer blamed "liberal society" for the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman."

There must be more in terms of context. I mean why was a sex offender working as a school janitor?

Cameron should get this far right headcase on his campaign team.

I don't think he's far right is he? He's not BNP material. Mind you, in the UK anything to the right of Tony Benn is considered far right.

anyway where in that article is it proven Britain is on it's knees? blimey he criticises the no smoking in public places law...err... why?

That was one just one article that showed one dangerous aspect of what Labour has done (ie. the errosion of civil liberties). Do some of your own research if you want to know more.

[bradavon]

What did you guys think of last nights debate?

I thought Cameron and Clegg came across about the same (i.e - good) and Brown as usual, a right duffer. That man really cannot do public speaking.

Clegg fluffed it over Trident, Cameron did a sudden u-turn about free opticians for the over 60s and Brown even claimed "he didn't authorise" those leaflets that lie about the Torries. I heard he had to have authorised it, which means it's worrying he authorises things he doesn't read.