French Blog in memorial to the two youngsters...

[Markgway]

Anyway, I can see why people would get angry over 2 kids dying cause they were fleeing from the cops, and the strong words from the politician, but it's been 8 days now, so it must be about something much much deeper ...

Why were they fleeing? If they hadn't done anything wrong why run? If a cop shouted over to you would your instinct be to leg it? And if you're stupid enough to run into a power station... well, duh! I don;t see how the cops can be blamed for that.

Anyway, as many have said here... you can protest against the police and politicians, but you shouldnt terrorize and harm innocent people.

Quite right. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Yi-Long. Wonders will never cease.

[thelostdragon]

Now I have a shotgun, a knife and a crowbar next to my bed.
If the riot gets here, I won't even try to tell the difference between cops and delinquents. Whoever gets into my yard will die a horrible death (and may God have no mercy on their souls).

Does your insurance pay for fired rounds?

Sorry, that was a bad one. Seriously, where in France do you live? Are the guys, who are responsible for the riots, as active in your area as they are in say Clichy.

How about the announced curfews. Do you think they are going to apply to your area as well?

[Markgway]

For urban violence and deliquents, there's zero tolerance".

Sounds good. Can we get this guy over here? I'd like to see our streets Ned and Chav free.

About cops:
2005: They beat the crap out of the students who were quietly demonstrating.
They sent a SWAT team to neutralize the sailors who were demonstrating on their boats in Marseille.
2003: They attacked and arrested teachers during a quiet demonstration.

That's all wrong... but so is advocating the abuse and murder of police. It makes you worse than them.

[Markgway]

Brad was clearly talking about British MUSLIMS and not Middle Eastern people living in Britain. You see, there ARE British Muslims, even if they didn't come from the Middle East.

Clearly I misunderstood. Can happen easily in a thread this dense with information and opinion. Anyway no one should be arrested/deported unless they do something seriously wrong. If the guilty party is a British citizen then they should be locked up - if not then deportation. I hope that clears up what I meant.

From the almost 60 million people, who live in France, 4 millions of them are Muslims from North-Africa and Black Africa and 1 million are Muslims from elsewhere.

That's 12% of the population. Much greater than the percentage in the UK.

In the meantime, it is officially denied that the two guys were escaping from cops. They were hunted to death. That's what their relatives, friends, fellow countrymen and fellow sufferers are saying. Enough is enough. It was the last straw that broke the camel's back. Since then there are fierce street battles are occuring every night which have put the French government into a crisis.

That all sounds like an excuse for the violence. A single incident jumped upon as a reason to riot. Why did the boys run? Why is it the police's fault that they did? Are police not to approach minorities on the off-chance something like this happens? I'm not sure who is responisble for these ghettos but I agree they must be wiped out. Britain is becoming the same. No go areas in some urban towns. And it's not born out of poverty as much as racism between different ethnic groups (most recently black and Asian).

The last time they were verbally debased was when Sarkozy, who wants to become French president, called them 'riffraff'. They aren't accepted anywhere apart from the ghettos.

But by rioting and causing violence and anarchy aren't they just proving him right? If someone calls me a thug and I smash a bottle over their face in response isn't that my way of proving them correct? If someone calls you scum you don't proceed to act like it unless that's deep down what you are. The government isn't always wrong. I just feel sorry for any decent non-violent person caught up in this mess no matter where they live.

The one thing I do agree on is that the situation needs to be sorted and the honest poor helped to find jobs and better accomodation. But rioting has surely set events back to square one.

[Yi-Long]

Anyway, I can see why people would get angry over 2 kids dying cause they were fleeing from the cops, and the strong words from the politician, but it's been 8 days now, so it must be about something much much deeper ...

Why were they fleeing? If they hadn't done anything wrong why run? If a cop shouted over to you would your instinct be to leg it? And if you're stupid enough to run into a power station... well, duh! I don;t see how the cops can be blamed for that.

Well, probably because as Tom stated, the police in france have a tendency to be very racist and violent towards youths of color.

Anyway, as many have said here... you can protest against the police and politicians, but you shouldnt terrorize and harm innocent people.

Quite right. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Yi-Long. Wonders will never cease.

Actually, in the past we very often agreed on things, so it's not THAT unbelievable. We've only disagreed a couple of times, of which one was because you somehow thought I have a reputation about being sensitive about movies and 'racisme' while actually my ONLY problem on the whole subject was with Mel Gibsons jokes in LW4, and even then it's mainly cause the jokes are of a very low, kindergarten-like level...

The other thing we disagreed about was you thinking I'm anti-america ... which I am, but mainly against their politics (which you later agreed on, but initially you thought I just hated every american person, which clearly isnt the case)

So, don't really know why you feel it's now suddenly so amazing to agree with me on some points, that you have to actually point it out...

(or... maybe I DO know... but perhaps I'm just to polite to make a big fucking deal out of it...)

[thelostdragon]

Why did the boys run? Why is it the police's fault that they did?

It's not their direct fault, but the fault of the general mistreatment of the people who live in that area.

Have you read that part of my article?

Maybe the wo boys shouldn't have try to escape in the first place. They could have surrendered. But Africans and Arabs from Clichy-sous-Bois don't feel safe at a police department. Police have always been dealing more aggressivley than is allowed with youngsters from the suburbs. In suburbian police departments, youngsters have been abused physically and psychologically. If one believes the statements of the youngsters, this must have been the order of the days.

Knowing this, having the instinct to avoid cops at all stakes, the two boys escaped into the high voltage house, not knowing that it would harm them more than the cops would have.

[tom2681]

Seriously, where in France do you live ?

In the suburbs of Marseille, in the south-east (close to Monaco and Cannes ).

Are the guys, who are responsible for the riots, as active in your area as they are in say Clichy.

Nope. But they'd still set fire to anything.
I know most of them, they live a quarter mile away from my house.

I'm trying to make a serious point.

So was I. If you need to kill someone (and you believe you're in the right) then do it. Justice can't do it for you.
As long as you know right from wrong, that's all that matters.

-----

1200 destroyed cars last night (numbers are decreasing).
330 people arrested.

-Sarkozy= Zero tolerance.
-Can we get this guy over here?

First: No. He wants to be the next french president.
Second: Why would you want a small evil nazi dwarf ruling your country ?

[thelostdragon]

Second: Why would you want a small evil nazi dwarf ruling your country?

Exactly... don't you already have one? LOL! Oh well, he is no dwarf... maybe just exchange him?

[romerojpg]

It sounds a lot like the sire Irish Riots lasy month, but on a massive scale and they also started for no real reason. It was just fun for the idiots to jump out and play riot as really I couldnt imagine many normal people want to riot. I am suprised the amry hasnt come out and started shooting everyone, then a war would erupt.

[Markgway]

Actually, in the past we very often agreed on things, so it's not THAT unbelievable.

Let's be honest, Yi. If we had a conversation in real life it would end in us beating the crap out of each other!!

[Markgway]

Have you read that part of my article?

Yes, I read the whole article. Don't get me entirely wrong... it's unquestionably wrong to pick on/terrorize any person because of their age/colour/background... but what I'm saying is you can't tarnish the entire police force/government in the way Tom does because of this. How is that different than the rogue/racist Police doing it? People are not inherently good citizens and there's a lot out there who'll use any situation as a catalyst for destruction and violence. Did the two boys really run because they were afraid of racism or is there more to it? We'll never know. But some quarters would have you believe the Police practically stoned them to death for breathing. "We" perversely defend rioters in order to prove just how liberal and right-on we are. Authority = bad. I don't need to do that. In my own mind I'm comfortable in my morality. I call it as I see it... and that's the truth.

[Markgway]

So was I. If you need to kill someone (and you believe you're in the right) then do it. Justice can't do it for you.
As long as you know right from wrong, that's all that matters.

But what you said is you would kill (police) indiscriminatly. How can that be serious unless you have severe anti-social issues? Generally speaking, of course you have the right to defend yourself. If a burglar invades your property with intent... pick up a golf club and go for it.

Why would you want a small evil nazi dwarf ruling your country ?

We already have one. (See I can be funny too!)

Admittedly, I know far less about French politics than you, but what makes him "evil" and a "Nazi"? The "dwarf" part I get.

[thelostdragon]

Did the two boys really run because they were afraid of racism or is there more to it?

They without doubt had something illegal with them or were stoned or whatever. However, what is more likely? That they ran because they were afraid of legal issues? Non of them were of full age and hence not liable to prosecution.

I'm pretty sure they were more afraid of the physical abuses, which many of their friends had already expeirenced in the past.

Of course all we can do here is speculate, as none of us actually knew the two kids in person.

[Yi-Long]

Actually, in the past we very often agreed on things, so it's not THAT unbelievable.

Let's be honest, Yi. If we had a conversation in real life it would end in us beating the crap out of each other!!

Hmmm... I always kinda hoped you'd be less dumb in real life...

Nah just kidding... as I said, we have different opinions on a couple of things, and occasionally it seems like you either just didnt read my post, or it was misunderstood, cause most of the arguments between us are usually a result of you misinterpreting something I said, or laying stuff in my mouth...

You usually get pissed of cause you think I agree with terrorisme and shit like that, while that isnt what I said or meant (duh), and usually I'll just explain it again to you in a slightly different wording... (which you usually ALSO misinterpret )

Anyway, I doubt we'd beat the shit out of eachother as a result of a discussion is kinda ridiculous ofcourse ... the mere thought of you even landing a single punch on me is preposterous
I never really get violent or upset about someone not agreeing with me... I realize we can't ALL have a 140+ IQ, so I take it for granted that some people think differently instead of correctly, like I do...
I usually go 'alritey... whatever you say... '

In real life, I usually only get mad when someone disrespects me, or threatens me, etc etc. But certainly not over a difference of opinion...

So, I doubt we'd be at eachother's throats when we'd have a real-life discussion... it would probably be just a normal and civil conversation as normal people do (although... it ofcourse depends on your behaviour and the way you decide to voice your opinions to me )

[thelostdragon]

Hmmm... on some occasions, I actually wished Mark had been here in the same room with me. :mrgreen:

[Yi-Long]

Hmmm... on some occasions, I actually wished Mark had been here in the same room with me. :mrgreen:

Is this really the time and place to express your sexual fantasies!?

[thelostdragon]

Couldn't resist...! 8)

[tom2681]

Only 476 cars burned tonight.
The curfew seems to be working.

Hopefully the crisis will blow over.

[grim_tales]

Glad Tom is still OK
476 cars is still a hell of a lot though

[thelostdragon]

LOL, they started in Germany as well now. Youngsters in Berlin and Cologne (the city I'm in) must be getting inspired by the French riots. 4 cars in Cologne were burning and in Berlin 6 cars and a motor-scooter were put on fire.

Police says that there is no connection to what is currently happening in France. LOOOOL! Stupid idiots think anybody believes them. Of course there is a connection, they just don't want the society to panic.

[Markgway]

Hmmm... on some occasions, I actually wished Mark had been here in the same room with me. :mrgreen:

That sounds ominous!!

You do know I'm not gay, right?

Actually, if we were all in a room together I bet we'd be really polite and friendly to each other and arguments would be far less heated than they are on this forum, because in person it's easier to make yourself understood. When we write it's different to how we talk and as a result messages and opinons can be misinterpreted, as I apparently keep doing to poor old Yi-Long. But I think these things work both ways... I'M NOT A MONSTER!!!

[Markgway]

LOL, they started in Germany as well now. Youngsters in Berlin and Cologne (the city I'm in) must be getting inspired by the French riots. 4 cars in Cologne were burning and in Berlin 6 cars and a motor-scooter were put on fire.

I hope this doesn't spread to Scotland. Hell, who am I kidding? We're far too drunk, stoned or lazy to start some shit! We'd miss the football on the TV tonight! The immigrant population in Jockland is minute so I think we've nothing to worry about.

[Mordib]

its not going to spread to the UK, not because there arent groups which could pick up the same logic, but simply because the press has gotten so carried away with the shoot to kill policy (which all police forces have in europe for dealing with bombers, its just the british police's blatent abuse of it thats causing the headlines....).

Im glad its calming down in france a bit, i guess theyre just growing bored or wrecking the place, theyve alrezdy wrecked all the easy to get to places, maintaining the pace would involve going farther afield...

hopefully it wont take off much in germany, though they do seem to have quite a disaffected ethnic minority youth of their own. It wont happen in spain because theyre used to eta (sp?) and as such take blowing crap up more interesting.

Mark/Bisc, whats the name of that alchoholic drink that people wander the streets with in scotland, i cant rememebr, but its somethingvery specific to scotland...

[thelostdragon]

LOL! They experienced in a few towns in France now, that Imams were able to send a lot of the youngsters home. Which means... an Imam telling a rioter about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is more effective than the civil war police with their weapons. A sociologist from Paris, Michel Wieviorka, says, "If we have to depend on the moral discourse of Imams in order to make suburbs peaceful again, then it is the final catastrophe for our republic."

LOL, he'd better pray that this won't be published in the French media.

[Mordib]

I'm not convinced it was the Imam who sorted it, I mean the religeous leaders started trying to quell it a few days ago surely with little effect, im much more of a fan of the theory that they got bored and just ran out of steam.

Thats not to say they had no effect, merely that it wasn't a religeosly motivated thing in the first place therefore it was unlikely that religeon could stop them

And that comment is ambiguous from the sociologist, what he meant (I believe looking at it logically)was that the current law enforcement system sucks (which i think most people at this point would agree with) but you are right, people could easily choose to understand it as 'religeon having any power is a disastr for france'