Cartoon Controversy

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 05 Feb 2006, 10:46

Why would you need an Islamic nation? Why would you need a Jewish nation? Aren't religion "cross-country"? Is the rest of the world then a Christian Nation? If so, why are we split into seperate nations with different views on politics and religion? Bah humbug I say...

Further, it's been brought to my attention that these people who do wrong with their holy book in their hand - most often don't REALLY have backing in those writings... like the right to kill your daughters because they "dishonour" you?!

And what's with this prophet? Why isn't he allowed to be drawn? You can draw God? But not his prophet? And didn't this same prophet say "Forgive him who wrongs you, join him who cuts you off"... That doesn't really rhyme with what is going on...

You ask me, this is really about something else and not these specific drawings... they were published in Denmark in September of 2005. Why are we just now getting all this noise? According to Aftenposten (NO) and Ekstra-Bladet (DK) some muslim religious leaders from Denmark apparently went "home" to rally their cause - but since the drawings printed by Jyllands-Posten (DK) really weren't that provocative ... so what did these people do? Brought along other pictures... pictures that WEREN'T printed, but was CLEARLY provocative (including pictures of the prophet as a pedophiliac, with a pig's snout etc. etc.). Now, THAT is manipulation and obscuring the issues!

Further, as I understand it - Syria is a very "militant" country where they've been trying for years to suppress to islamic religion... and that's were the "worst" reactions now seems to be...

I really think more people should READ these holy books they swear to (no matter which religion you swear to!) because most of it is about acceptance, love and peace... not murder-death-kill.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Feb 2006, 11:05

I agree Gojensen - the cartoons first appeared 5 months ago - why report them now?!

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 05 Feb 2006, 11:54

Markgway wrote:
By that token anything that offends anyone should be banned?

Of course not, that's not what I said. If you read the rest of my post, I do highlight faults from both sides of the arguements including Arabic newspapers publishing anti-Jew/Christian cartoons for years.

All I'm saying is that they should've used some sort of moral judgement. I mean there is nothing to stop me approaching an overweight person and humiliating him in front of his face. However there is a chance that it is going to upset him, perhaps even considerably. From that point of view, I have nothing to gain apart from feeling smug and am certainly not raising any point. It would be wiser for me to avoid that situation and any subsequent trouble.

I do agree that Islam is treated more liniantly in the UK and that is a sad and pathetic truth. However the reaction is always going to be more severe from a minority of the Muslim population (as exhibited recently).

I would like everyone to either accept harmless religious satire or come to a mutual agreement to stop it altogether (and I don't mean a forced ban). Instead we live in a world full of hypocritical fuckwits.

Ultimately though, I'm surprised at the outrage this is all causing. To get upset over something like this, when there are clearly more important things to get worried about, is very sad. I pity these people.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 12:02

Markgway wrote:
What if a neo-nazi magazine was released every sunday with anti-foreigners and anti-Jew comics in it. They couldn't legitimate that with freedom of speech or artistic freedom.
Anti-Jewish cartoons are regularly published in Arabic nations...........

SILENCE.

Just for the record, I have lived in the Middle East for several years and this statement of yours is simply not true. The cartoons you might be talking about are anti-ISRAEL, which is quite different to anti-JEWISH. As soon as it comes to religion, cartoonists and every other satirist see a limit, because Islam tells them not to make fun or ridicule other people's beliefs. I wouldn't dare say it never happened, as of course I haven't bought every single newspaper every day, but to say that "anti-JEWISH cartoons are regularly published in Arab nations" is very wrong and especially shouldn't be said by someone who probably has bever been in an Arabic country.
The cartoons in Arab newspapers are very political and criticise Israel a lot, yes. But they do not insult religious beliefs of people who take these as their way of life.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 12:24

Markgway wrote:
thelostdragon wrote:Just on a sidenote: Freedom ends where it limits another person's freedom. Even art should have its limits in my opinion.
But my freedom to see those cartoons has been taken away.

It has not. They were published and still are. And I doubt if the current controversy was not there, you wouldn't even mind to see them. And if you're telling me you haven't seen them, then you either haven't looked well enough online, or I can send them to you.

If those cartoons said: "Muslims all deserve to die" then I would also back a banning.

These cartoons, that show our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with an Afghan beard, a bomb on his head, a dagger in his hand, two completely veiled women behind him put all clichés oneo one page which headline reads, "Muhammad's Thinking".
These, especially the one with the bomb, suggest that Islam is evil from its roots and hence Muslims have to bear the blame of war in Afghanistan and Iraq on themselves, places where hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed. It's an insult to about 1.3 billion people, which is about 20% of the world's population.

And you're talking to me about good and bad taste, Mark? Sorry, but that's hardly without any taste, tasteless.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 13:41

So if I insult 1.3 Billion people thats wrong then, not at all as the views of these people are wrong from the root. The suport they are giving to the bombers and mass killers is masive and thats an insult to any human being.

I just hope everyone who suports them dies painfully and that would be a lot of the 1.3 Billion thats for sure, mainly brainwashed fools mind you who are too ignorant to see past the word of some dick near them shouting up about fuck all. They just join in as they are thick as pigshit. Mass ignorance is no excuse.

BiscLimpkit · Post by **BiscLimpkit** » 05 Feb 2006, 14:11

romerojpg wrote:So if I insult 1.3 Billion people thats wrong then

From a moral point of view, yes.

romerojpg wrote:not at all as the views of these people are wrong from the root.

The views of all 1.3 billion people are wrong from the root? You forget that not only a proportion of so called Muslims twist their faith into resorting to extremism. Just like all religions, Islam is a peaceful faith. It is the individual that fails to take responsibility for their own actions, instead of using religion as a shield.

romerojpg wrote:The suport they are giving to the bombers and mass killers is masive and thats an insult to any human being.

Again the support is not from 1.3 billion people. The final is considerably less.

romerojpg wrote: I just hope everyone who suports them dies painfully and that would be a lot of the 1.3 Billion thats for sure, mainly brainwashed fools mind you who are too ignorant to see past the word of some dick near them shouting up about fuck all. They just join in as they are thick as pigshit. Mass ignorance is no excuse.

It will not be a lot of the 1.3 billion. It may be a high number numerically but it would be a small fraction of the 1.3 billion.

Remember that the Arab states were never like this around 70 years ago. It would've been possible for foreigners to enter these countries with confidence and peace in mind. The interference of the west has made these extremists who they are. However that's a completely different arguement to what's being discussed here.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Feb 2006, 14:43

Without religion we wouldn't have fundamentalists

As Richard Dawkins said "For good people to do evil things, it takes religion".
But you're right Bisc, IMO its' the individuals' fault, not necessarily religion that they do bad stuff and twist things for their own purposes, and its certainly not 1.3bn people who are like that. As you say, all religions, if followed properly, are peaceful

As God (George Burns) said to John Denver in the film Oh God! "I don't create the suffering in the world. You do".

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 05 Feb 2006, 16:26

thelostdragon wrote:What if a neo-nazi magazine was released every sunday with anti-foreigners and anti-Jew comics in it. They couldn't legitimate that with freedom of speech or artistic freedom.

I wouldn't care - why should I? It's not like they are FORCING those magazines down my throat is it? People have different opinions... I deal with it.

thelostdragon wrote:These cartoons, that show our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with an Afghan beard, a bomb on his head, a dagger in his hand, two completely veiled women behind him put all clichés oneo one page which headline reads, "Muhammad's Thinking".
These, especially the one with the bomb, suggest that Islam is evil from its roots and hence Muslims have to bear the blame of war in Afghanistan and Iraq on themselves, places where hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed. It's an insult to about 1.3 billion people, which is about 20% of the world's population.

Have you seen the cartoons? More specifically perhaps, have you seen the original unmodified Jyllands-Posten or Magazinet? I haven't... nobody seems to want to keep them online

But that description CERTAINLY doesn't sound like the description I got of the toons that were printed...

When someone crosses someones "lines" like this, I see no problem in them saying they are insulted and demanding an apology from the insultee. That's not what is happening when people burn down embassys, demands public retractions and apologies from the countries leaders and threaten injuries and boycots. I mean, that'd be like if I punched you in the face and you'd demand that Norways Prime Minister apologize for my behaviour...

/me - still looking for those toons...

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 16:50

I just find it funny at the way these gimps act, its like the who religion thing is real

brainwashed fools.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:31

gojensen wrote:
thelostdragon wrote:What if a neo-nazi magazine was released every sunday with anti-foreigners and anti-Jew comics in it. They couldn't legitimate that with freedom of speech or artistic freedom.
I wouldn't care - why should I? It's not like they are FORCING those magazines down my throat is it? People have different opinions... I deal with it.

You wouldn't care? Well, that's sad.

Have you seen the cartoons? More specifically perhaps, have you seen the original unmodified Jyllands-Posten or Magazinet?

Yes.

I haven't... nobody seems to want to keep them online But that description CERTAINLY doesn't sound like the description I got of the toons that were printed...

Well, even Wikipedia has them online:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P ... d_cartoons

When someone crosses someones "lines" like this, I see no problem in them saying they are insulted and demanding an apology from the insultee. That's not what is happening when people burn down embassys, demands public retractions and apologies from the countries leaders and threaten injuries and boycots.

The thing is people are saying, "I don't understand why after 3 months do they react."
Well, it seems that aggression was necessary until the media and people in drew their attention to this matter. Muslims in Denmark have already been trying to the prime minister's attention to this the day these cartoons were printed and they demanded that the paper apologies.

I mean, look at this online petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... cgi?DENMUS

Almost 100.000 signatures didn't pop up since the end of January.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:36

thelostdragon wrote:Just for the record, I have lived in the Middle East for several years and this statement of yours is simply not true. The cartoons you might be talking about are anti-ISRAEL, which is quite different to anti-JEWISH.

I've seen some of these cartoons - they were reprinted in UK newspapers - and they are clearly anti-Jewish. Some are specific to Israel, others are not, and conform to nasty, generic stereotyping. It's interesting that papers will reprint these, but not the Mohammed ones. Double-standards? I think so. If you do a search on-line you may find them for yourself.

As soon as it comes to religion, cartoonists and every other satirist see a limit, because Islam tells them not to make fun or ridicule other people's beliefs.

Yet, that limit was not shown in the UK with Jerry Springer and Life of Brian (and any number of others...) and it's ridicule of Christianity, therefore why should a limit be placed on the same satirists over Islam? I wouldn't expect an Islamic cartoonist to take the piss out of his own religion anymore than I would the Pope out of Christianity, but don't others have the right to do so...? Whether or not one finds it offensive or funny is utterly irrelevant.

I wouldn't dare say it never happened, as of course I haven't bought every single newspaper every day, but to say that "anti-JEWISH cartoons are regularly published in Arab nations" is very wrong and especially shouldn't be said by someone who probably has bever been in an Arabic country.

I can only go by what I read. Reports suggest contrary to what you say.

The cartoons in Arab newspapers are very political and criticise Israel a lot, yes. But they do not insult religious beliefs of people who take these as their way of life.

So, it's OK to insult someone's political beliefs, appearence, culture, but not their religion? What makes religion so special? And why should it be recognised as such by those who don't believe in it?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:42

thelostdragon wrote:It has not. They were published and still are.

Not in the U.K. If they were cartoons pertaining to any other religion we would've seen them by now. But Britain is scared of Islamic extremists. The BBC dared show the original newspapers containing the cartoons, but that's not the same as reprinting them.

And if you're telling me you haven't seen them, then you either haven't looked well enough online, or I can send them to you.

I'm not really that interested in seeing them... that's not the point I'm making. It's someone or some group telling me I shouldn't that bothers me.

These cartoons, that show our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with an Afghan beard, a bomb on his head, a dagger in his hand, two completely veiled women behind him put all clichés oneo one page which headline reads, "Muhammad's Thinking". These, especially the one with the bomb, suggest that Islam is evil from its roots and hence Muslims have to bear the blame of war in Afghanistan and Iraq on themselves, places where hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed. It's an insult to about 1.3 billion people, which is about 20% of the world's population.

Of course, it's offensive. Crude, even. I never said it wasn't. But it doesn't incite violence, and reflects someone's opinion. The Protestors incite violence. Now tell me which of the above is more wrong? Provocation to debate or provocation to kill?

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:43

romerojpg wrote:I just find it funny at the way these gimps act, its like the who religion thing is real brainwashed fools.

You're calling me a gimp and a brainwashed fool, because I have a way of life in which I believe?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:46

You cannot insult a religion because these people are mentalists, if anything to do with religion was true then god would come down and say all this crap is wrong, but its obvious there is no god and hence he isnt going to come down.

Or if you really beleve in such stuff, he is too busy to care for his followers, in the end that says to me fuck religion, as either way its total bollocks.

God is probibly far to busy killing endless children and innocents across the globe to care about his silly followers anyway, even if they are his followers. If you care to beleve in a god like that your a total looney to me.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:49

You cannot insult a religion because these people are mentalists, if anything to do with religion was true then god would come down and say all this crap is wrong, but its obvious there is no god and hence he isnt going to come down.

Or if you really beleve in such stuff, he is too busy to care for his followers, in the end that says to me fuck religion, as either way its total bollocks.

God is probibly far to busy killing endless children and innocents across the globe to care about his silly followers anyway, even if they are his followers. If you care to beleve in a god like that your a total looney to me.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:50

Markgway wrote:Yet, that limit was not shown in the UK with Jerry Springer and Life of Brian (and any number of others...) and it's ridicule of Christianity, therefore why should a limit be placed on the same satirists over Islam?

As far as I cn remember, Monty Python are ot Muslims and "Life of Brian" was not made by Muslims. It's something completely different if Christians make fun of their own religion or if Muslims made a film like "Life of Brian".

If Christians are not insulted by such films, then good for them. That doesn't mean that Muslims shouldn't take their own religion serious though.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:51

Serious as in threaten to kill

way to go Muslims and all more importantly religion.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 18:57

Man, it doesn't matter what people believe in. Even if someone believes in a huge-ass pile of shit, you'll have to respect that and shouldn't insult him due to his PERSONAL BELIEF.

As for my belief in God... he has given us the responsibility to take care of ourselves. He used to interfere in the past and sent us his message through several prophets. Now it's over and time to accept his presence. Besides, you don't even know if God interferes these days or not. When bad things happen, people wonder why God has left them. When good things happen though they take it for granted.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:04

LD is entitled to believe in his own religion, regardless of what I think of it. But at the end of the day it is HIS religion and not mine, and I do not expect to be bound by its conventions. If I were to call his prophet an offensive name, then I don't expect him to like it. I would expect him to be offended, indeed. But short of going in the huff with me... I wouldn't expect to have a fucking fatwa put on my head. See what I'm saying? It's all about freedom...

LD, you're right about Life of Brian; maybe that wasn't a good example? But I'm sure you still know what I mean? Everyone should have the right to offend or speak their mind. I mean, look at Romero.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:13

thelostdragon wrote:Man, it doesn't matter what people believe in. Even if someone believes in a huge-ass pile of shit, you'll have to respect that and shouldn't insult him due to his PERSONAL BELIEF.

As for my belief in God... he has given us the responsibility to take care of ourselves. He used to interfere in the past and sent us his message through several prophets. Now it's over and time to accept his presence. Besides, you don't even know if God interferes these days or not. When bad things happen, people wonder why God has left them. When good things happen though they take it for granted.

Yes they may beleve in something, but I couldnt care less at all, as they are acting like criminals who need to be locked up or even better killed.
If someone insults things I love, care for, beleve in, I dont go out and kill etc..

these idiots think they are going to a better place when they die? how ignorant are they when they have lived such evil lives.

God, well thats the best reply you can give to his existence? then that shows you all there is to see, you may beleve in such things from historical stuff from eons ago told by ignorant people thru the ages, I dont. Even tales told years back are just that, tales told by people to create a religion and it has worked well and gave many people massive power over others thu the ages. As people beleve any old shit when it comes to religion, no matter how silly it is.

Not trying to offend people, but it does happen, thing is would someone kill me for my words? yes they would as some people are crazy.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:21

Not trying to offend people?? Then stop calling other peope's beliefs and the stories connected to them 'shit'. That would be a good start to stop offending people.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:31

Yes but as many say its my opinion, if I said anything else I would be an even bigger dick as I would be holding back and lying.
Would you rather I never spoke about such things? I dont mind hearing other people opinions on subjects I suport etc.. I would have thought (even if they are insulting) people would want to hear others opinions on subjects, even if they went a little far, just to get a grip of how stupid I can see others are on other subject.

I am sure i come off as a total flipping wanker to many, but I feel I at least speak about these things. I get carried away and maybe should not say some things, but they are only words after all and its not as if I am threatning to kill you for your religious beliefs and actions.

Unlike the people this topic is acctually about, I am sure they would get me if they had the chance thats for sure.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:43

romero, you could save yourself a lot of such discussions and troubles if you simple put your words differently. The English language is so versatile that you can say your opinion without insulting others, because that is a huge difference. Instead of saying, 'People believe any old shit when it comes to religion, no matter how silly it is', you could also have said:
When it comes to religion, people believe in things I could never believe in.

That way, people would respect that you have your personal opinion, but the way you are used to talk about others only offends them and are taken as personal attacks, which I can totally understand.

Anyway, I'm not into lecturing you. You should be old enough and experienced enough to know how to talk to people and tell them what you think without offending them. Sometimes I believe you're doing such stuff intentionally, just in order to offend others.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 05 Feb 2006, 19:51

Well I wouldnt talk like that in real life thats for sure.

The net for me is a very different place I guess. I just get very angry on some subjects and you cannot argue with some people even if they are wrong (or right). I dont do it much on the net, only on a place like Bullets to be honest, as I would be banned instantly from most other sites. I dont aim words at people, but yes people do take them personally, sometimes I care, sometimes I dont it depends on the subject.

I care about this awful religious situation at the moment as its getting out of control across the world and too many people are justifling it by saying its their right to protest etc.. look on the news right now and see how these ignorant fanatsic are behaving, now 3 places have been burned to the ground and mass slogans of I will kill you etc.. have been paraded, that doesnt get me angry, I am furious the law is not shooting these scumbags in the streets! their behaviour is no more than rioters doing there worst and the thousands of people behind them screaming kill, kill, kill is just as bad.

Anyone giving suport of any kind to people like them are not worth even giving life to, and the sad fact is too many people are giving them suport and justifying there actions. Its nice to see the odd person pop up in the news condeming it, but sadly the media isnt exactly getting enuff of them sensible people on our screen.