BNP leader cleared of race charges

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 10 Nov 2006, 22:23

Unbelievable. I can't see how anyone would say he and his party aren't racist:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6135060.stm
http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp- ... id=1249233

It doesn't say why though, any ideas??? It seems to say they didn't break the law because they were allowed free speech. Fine but at the same time they are stirring up racial hatred.

To have no black member on the jury seems very suspect to me. It's at the crux of the whole case.

It sounds to me he got off on a technicality: "Speaking to the BBC after the acquittal, Chancellor Gordon Brown said race laws may have to be tightened.".

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 10 Nov 2006, 22:34

not to start a whole debate here....but would an asian have gotten away with saying something similar? i doubt it.

the trials are held in my city and i pass the courts everyday on the way to college, the amount of supporters there is insane, and most of them dont even know why they are there. they go under the guise of "freedom of speech" but one must consider that with freedom of speech comes responsibility. they just chant about the BNP,

saying that tho, the anti-BNP are just as bad, most of them are against them, but arent entirley sure why, just that they said some offensive racist things. last year i went to the protests as a neutral person, to take photographs. it was disturbing, far to violent in its undertones. i asked some of these people why they were protesting and got "they are racist" yes...but so are many people... i dont agree with most of their policies and certainly dont want them running the country, however take away the racism and discrimination and some of their ideas are rather good. but the leader is a racist, idiotic, snide little bastard

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 10 Nov 2006, 22:38

Shen wrote:however take away the racism and discrimination and some of their ideas are rather good. but the leader is a racist, idiotic, snide little bastard

The two are too intertwined, racism is at the heart of their party.

But agreed some of their policies do make sense, not that I'm sure I'd want to go as far as they do.

Any chance of uploading those snaps?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 10 Nov 2006, 22:47

i dont have any on the PC, i used them in a photography project so the original prints are in college, tho i should get them back soon. i do remember having a great photo of a copper walking towards me, such a dumb expression on his face as i got him in the middle of speaking

i'll have a search in some of my folders in my room, see if i cna find some left over prints...as i took them on 35mm film, theres no digital images of them tho i swear i scanned some, but oh well... when i find them (if i find them) i'll upload some for you

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:00

Cheers

Shen wrote:not to start a whole debate here....but would an asian have gotten away with saying something similar? i doubt it.

I'm not sure a jury but definitely not the general public. In fact people would say he/she was an Islamic extremist.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:04

i found two, tho they arent that great, old camera rather grainy and hard to focus, also in black and white. but i'll scan them as soon as i can get onto the other PC, i have to find out when i can pick up my work too, i want some of it back.

i wanted to get some more photographs this week, but it was kicking off too much, they seemed rather volatile, and i'd already been approached by the cops last time, the pro-bnp didnt like their photo's taken...boo-hoo, they shouldnt be there then, there was enough media there so it wasnt really an excuse, they were just pissed cuz i was speaking with the anti-bnp lol

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:29

Please don't trouble yourself on my account. He he I have the perfect smilie

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:35

LOL i could take offence at that

but i wont

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:49

What the high heels and lipstick?

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 10 Nov 2006, 23:52

just the "you go girl" thing, never been one for this stuff...never understood it. oh and yeah i suppose the high heels and lipstick too, and the bow

im not at all girly, dont see the need for it, since being girly is usually associated with being an air-head, i'll pass thanks

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Nov 2006, 00:40

Isn't that like saying in order to be considered intelligent you have to dress and act like a bloke? Feminism is dead? 8)
Many successful career women have breasts and brains and flaunt them both. More power to them I say.
I like women who are smart, funny and attractive and not afraid to show it by hiding who they are or pretending to be something else.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Nov 2006, 00:44

I don't like the BNP and I don't agree with their racist policies.

But in this country we still have the right to free speech and political opinion.

Until Gordon Brown takes it away that is...

Now, from the excerpts of the undercover footage of Nick Griffin I heard, nothing he says actually promotes violence or illegal action against minorities.

Maybe down to clever wording?

But you can't drag someone through the courts because of what you think they meant or simply because you don't like them.

That's called facism.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 11 Nov 2006, 00:57

i used the word "usually" not "always" of course you can be feminine and intelligent, but latley it seems that in this generation the occurance of this i few and far between.

i just dont see the need for being really girly, like screaming from spiders, being giggly and over excitable etc etc. i guess im just around these people too much in my classes, they giggle and screech and act stupid 95% of the time, the height of their conversations is how drunk they got, or the lastest sexy underwear, they wonder why they fail their assignments. and its a far too common thing. i dont dress or act like a bloke, i just dont act girly either. people take me for who i am. if they dont like it then its their problem.

as for feminism, im all for it, its about time it was implicated to its full extent, which is slowly happening tho, i can see this generation of young people screwing that up greatly, cuz most of them just dont give a fuck.

what do you mean called fascism? we are already becoming a fascist state

you should see my college its like a prison, ID cards to swipe to let you in, metal detectors, stop and search policies, cameras everywhere, nazi style security guards that are total pricks, even like not being allowed to stand in the foyer despite it being huge and you cant block the way...you cant say anything though, nu-uh that just wouldnt do. we have complained and protests have been talked about but its been made clear that this system remains, no matter what we do, if we protest we will more han likely be suspended.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Nov 2006, 01:08

Shen wrote:i used the word "usually" not "always" of course you can be feminine and intelligent, but latley it seems that in this generation the occurance of this i few and far between.

But aren't you just adding to the stereotype by making yourself dowdy (I presume) to make a point about how smart you are? At your age I did a similar thing in acting superior to those around me, and you know what, I spent an awful lot of time talking to myself instead of having fun. People like us just think we're smarter.

i just dont see the need for being really girly, like screaming from spiders, being giggly and over excitable etc etc. i guess im just around these people too much in my classes, they giggle and screech and act stupid 95% of the time, the height of their conversations is how drunk they got, or the lastest sexy underwear, they wonder why they fail their assignments. and its a far too common thing. i dont dress or act like a bloke, i just dont act girly either. people take me for who i am. if they dont like it then its their problem.

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define 'girly'. Those attributes you describe are indeed vacant, but I was meaning more feminine than girly, perhaps? I don't expect you to giggle your way through life (as if?) but you've tied being feminine and stupid together as one lump package. Thus, you've downplayed your own looks as a pretence to being non-girly and tomboyish. Because sexy girls are dumb, right??

as for feminism, im all for it, its about time it was implicated to its full extent, which is slowly happening tho, i can see this generation of young people screwing that up greatly, cuz most of them just dont give a fuck.

Feminism is empty-headed nonsense as are most self-proclaimed "movements". Just be your own person, not what others want you to be and, importantly, not how you think others will perceive you. I should also point out that by dressing down (I'm guessing you wear a lot of black?) you do this as a means of avoiding attention you're unable to cope with? But that's maybe another story...

what do you mean called fascism? we are already becoming a fascist state you should see my college its like a prison, ID cards to swipe to let you in, metal detectors, stop and search policies, cameras everywhere, nazi style security guards that are total pricks, even like not being allowed to stand in the foyer despite it being huge and you cant block the way...you cant say anything though, nu-uh that just wouldnt do. we have complained and protests have been talked about but its been made clear that this system remains, no matter what we do, if we protest we will more han likely be suspended.

I guess things have gotten worse on the education front since I was at College/Uni. We had IDs, probably cameras too, though I never really noticed, but no guards, or metal detectors, and we could stand where we liked in the foyer.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 11 Nov 2006, 01:25

Markgway wrote:
But aren't you just adding to the stereotype by making yourself dowdy (I presume) to make a point about how smart you are? At your age I did a similar thing in acting superior to those around me, and you know what, I spent an awful lot of time talking to myself instead of having fun. People like us just think we're smarter.

well thats you, i dont presume to be smarter than anyone, for all i know they could be supersmart but dumbing themselves down to fit in, im naturally introverted, so i dont make friends easily i prefer my own company. i just dont like being in the same room as people who are acting like the above mentioned, mainly becuase their screeching hurts my ears.

Well, I suppose it depends on how you define 'girly'. Those attributes you describe are indeed vacant, but I was meaning more feminine than girly, perhaps? I don't expect you to giggle your way through life (as if?) but you've tied being feminine and stupid together as one lump package. Thus, you've downplayed your own looks as a pretence to being non-girly and tomboyish. Because sexy girls are dumb, right??

i love how you try to psychoanalyse a person you dont know, never met and only read what they had to say in a virtual world. i actually havent tied feminism to being dumb. your just assuming that i have, quite the opposite, there are successful, feminine women out there that i am quite in awe of at times. and sexy girls are not always dumb, but it is a common image that is projected both by the media and a good number of girls today.

Feminism is empty-headed nonsense as are most self-proclaimed "movements". Just be your own person, not what others want you to be and, importantly, not how you think others will perceive you. I should also point out that by dressing down (I'm guessing you wear a lot of black?) you do this as a means of avoiding attention you're unable to cope with? But that's maybe another story...

femininsim in most senses is indeed nonsense, and i would thank you to note that i am my own person, i am what i am, if you dont like it then you dont like it i shant change for them, unless i want too. and again with the psychoanalysis. i wear what i want to wear, depends on my mood, i dont wear skimpy clothes, i wear what i feel comfortable in. could be black, could be blue, red, white, an old paint covered shirt...whatever i want on that day. as for attention i dont seek it, and i am not fussed about being left on my own, actually i prefer it. but thats just the way i have always been.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Nov 2006, 01:28

Shen wrote:just the "you go girl" thing, never been one for this stuff...never understood it.

It's a compliment trust me 8) , what don't you get?

Markgway wrote:But in this country we still have the right to free speech and political opinion.

Agreed BUT directly or indirectly he knows what he says incites racism and violence which is illegal and something he wants. He's using the free speech card as an excuse.

Normally I'd agree but when free speech is used as an excuse to allow violence and racism that's wrong. Particularly when he's the head of a flipping party.

I still can't believe he got away with it.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Nov 2006, 03:11

Brad: You can't convict someone for serving up a message of hate and violence in a speech if it's implicit rather than stated. Griffin could easily turn around and say he never intended for anyone to go out and abuse or hurt minorities. And whether or not that's true you can't prove otherwise. There's a huge difference between saying "I don't like immigrants" and "Go out and hurt immigrants with violence and prejudice". I doubt any politician would be that stupid even if it's how they felt. The jury had to find him not guilty. I don't like the man, but as far as I can see he's done nothing illegal. It worries me when people call for jailing someone simply because they don't approve of their policies. All that does is give creedence to the BNP's arguments.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 11 Nov 2006, 09:09

But Mark haven't you yourself called the BNP racist scum? As far as I can see, Nick Griffin keeps drawing attention to immigrants or whoever in speeches I've heard, given the impression he doesn't like them and doesn't want them in Britain. Consider his "Lets show these ethnics the door in 2004" - this sounds racist to me.

Prejudiced if nothing else, even if he didn't "incite hatred" (not going into yet another example of someone who actually did this). Won't Griffin twist his words to justify his policies? You bet he will.

If two famous quotes from his speech, saying "Muslims are turning Britain into a multi racial hell hole" and Islam is a "wicked vicious faith" aren't hurtful, I don't know what are. He's just playing into people's hands here, the man's a fool IMO.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 11 Nov 2006, 14:17

BNP are scum, as are many of the other races and parties who preech hate. It isnt just the BNP that get away with this crap, everyone gets away with it, esspecially the recent Muslim scummers where about 3 people out of thousands have been shut up in any way. The law needs to punich these hate mongers, not let them get away with it evry time.

The whole coutry needs a kick in the arse, scumbag racists shit stiring is nasty and vile and really needs to be stamped out.

So good job the law sees the wrong side, as they let them all get away with it

pathetic country.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Nov 2006, 16:32

grim_tales wrote:But Mark haven't you yourself called the BNP racist scum?

Yep. But that's not illegal is it?

As far as I can see, Nick Griffin keeps drawing attention to immigrants or whoever in speeches I've heard, given the impression he doesn't like them and doesn't want them in Britain.

And he's entitled to his opinion... whether or not you or I agree is utterly irrelevent.

Consider his "Lets show these ethnics the door in 2004" - this sounds racist to me.

It is. So...? You can't jail someone for thinking differently.

Prejudiced if nothing else, even if he didn't "incite hatred" (not going into yet another example of someone who actually did this). Won't Griffin twist his words to justify his policies? You bet he will.

That's what a (racist) politician would do.

If two famous quotes from his speech, saying "Muslims are turning Britain into a multi racial hell hole" and Islam is a "wicked vicious faith" aren't hurtful, I don't know what are.

His opinion. You can't prosecute someone because you don't like what they've got to say. Until he breaks the law by threatening or harming anyone he's safe and he knows it. Anything else is facism. Where do you draw the line? I don't like Islam? Should I go to jail?

He's just playing into people's hands here, the man's a fool IMO.

Not so sure. I think it might be the opposite. The facists are proving his point by trying to shut him up. If he plays victim it may persuade average white people he has a valid point.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 11 Nov 2006, 16:57

I meant he's playing into extremists hands or whatever, if we get protestors marching with placards because of some silly cartoons, or when Jack Straw gives his opinion, imagine what this will do.
OK - so he's not inciting violence, but he is a racist. Somehow because of this, the Government want the law changed. Muslim protestors march with placards saying "Death to those who insult Islam" and incite violence, and the Government does nothing.
Eh?

I know what you mean though, Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say but I defend to the death your right to say it".

However, isn't saying "Show ethnics the door" a statement with facist overtones? Its like the Blackshirts marching on London saying "We gotta get rid of the Yids" (Yids = London slang for Jews). Was Hitler just giving his opinion?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Nov 2006, 17:06

Markgway wrote:Brad: You can't convict someone for serving up a message of hate and violence in a speech if it's implicit rather than stated. Griffin could easily turn around and say he never intended for anyone to go out and abuse or hurt minorities. And whether or not that's true you can't prove otherwise. There's a huge difference between saying "I don't like immigrants" and "Go out and hurt immigrants with violence and prejudice". I doubt any politician would be that stupid even if it's how they felt. The jury had to find him not guilty. I don't like the man, but as far as I can see he's done nothing illegal.

Fair point. Except he was airing his opinions as the leader of a party and during a party rally, he has the power to sway lots of peoples opinions.

And as Shen has said: If Griffin was a Muslim and also aired his opinion. Would he have got away with it? Possibly/Unlikely. Would the publics opinion be the same?

Definitely not he'd be called an extremist Islamic terrorist. I see no difference, yet most of the public would.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Nov 2006, 17:10

Time to move to Debate.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Nov 2006, 02:44

bradavon wrote:Fair point. Except he was airing his opinions as the leader of a party and during a party rally, he has the power to sway lots of peoples opinions.

That's what politics is all about. If people ARE swayed then WHY? Most Brits aren't racist so what do minorities have to worry about from the BNP? If people choose to follow them there's nothing we can do about it except to try to persuade them otherwise. What you don't do is ban or jail your opponent. THAT'S facist.

And as Shen has said: If Griffin was a Muslim and also aired his opinion. Would he have got away with it? Possibly/Unlikely. Would the publics opinion be the same?

They have been for over a decade. Captain Hook received thousands per year in benefits for preaching his brand of hate. But the law turned a blind eye. The reasons he was eventually jailed were twofold: 1. He called for violence and supported terrorism. 2. The Americans wanted him so the lily-livered government were forced to do SOMETHING.