The Bullets Rules Brainstorming Thread!

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Mar 2005, 22:17

Ice angel one member (I forget who) said he/she doesn't like graphic images so I thought it only fair to add as a possible rule.

I take it I can assume you're happy for every rule to be added except 4? If it came to that.

Thanks Degeneration and Mark but you've not read what I asked (

). I asked members to reply saying what they want to become rules not give their comments on each rule. This has already been done.

By all means add more comments but I'd prefer people say what rules they are interested in becoming rules. We don't really want more than 5-6 rules.

Unless I wasn't clear here it is again:

"Can each member read through these rules and post a list of the numbers they agree with. So for example if you would like 1 and 5 adding to the forum rules post:

1,5"

Markgway wrote:Discuss? Yes. It's up to the individual user to act responsibly.

I tend to agree but as you've even argued yourself in the past it's one thing to discuss it in a responsible manner but we all know the law doesn't see it that way.

Sites can (and have) been shut down for discussing illegal content. Besides at the end of the day if Mordib feels it's the safe route to ban the talking of illegal stuff then so be it. For the record I agree with him, even if it means I myself can no longer discuss bootlegs.

Is this a form of censoship maybe but one you will find every site (afaik) feels the same about.

grim_tales wrote:I should update one thread more often in the Trade/Bargain forum when I do a trade thread, too often I post seperate threads. My bad :mrgreen:

Most members do this. It's not really an issue as it's easy to lock and then delete (later on) old topics.

p.s - Just for Grim the censorship of words is no longer being discussed

. Notice how I didn't bother to include it in the rules list above :mrgreen:

degeneration · Post by **degeneration** » 22 Mar 2005, 22:36

Ah sorry. I just commented on each cause I that does make it clear in most cases which ones I think are good for rules. But for more explicit numbers of the ones that should become rules and what not:

Proper Hard Fast Rules
1, 5, 11

More general forum etiquette
2, 3, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 22 Mar 2005, 22:39

Thanks Degeneration.

It makes it easier for me/Mordib to work out what rules are hated. I've read yours and Mark's comments but if everyone decides to do the same it would take to long to read them and work what members wanted.

I like your idea of harder and softer rules. The warning system rule is really there (IMO anyway) as a what if scenary it's unlikely we'll ever need to implement it.

As far as I know only one member has ever been banned on Bullets, in all the years I've been visiting. I can't remember who he was know the guy who didn't play fair when trading with someone. I'm certainly against a permanent ban, as I suspect everyone else is.

Mordib wrote:I would like to also suggest that a whole bunch of these get combined into one, labelled 'forum etiquette'. lists that get too long make my eyes feel like bleeding...

Good idea. I also suggest once we have some basic rules they are better clarified such as what is allowed and what isn't illegal wise.

They'll be better rules if they're explained instead of a one sentence rule.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 22 Mar 2005, 22:46

The only ones I would support without qualification (ie. as written) are:

05. No trolling or spamming.
11. Warning System

I'd support all the others with qualification.

No site can be closed for merely discussing bootlegs. That would be illegal in itself. Providing links and open assisting in bootlegging of copyrighted material is another matter.

What's the current BNB status on trading copies of non-copyrighted films (ie. many old school Kung Fu flicks)?

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 23 Mar 2005, 00:50

bradavon wrote:Ice angel one member (I forget who) said he/she doesn't like graphic images so I thought it only fair to add as a possible rule.

Damn! Well hello, Mr Fancy Pants. That's you Yi, aren't you ? I knew it... all your freedom speech never fooled me for a second.

How about suggesting he/she to exert his/her free option not to look at whatever he/she doesn't like ? Enter the aforementioned warning in thread subjects, etc.

By all means do it if Mordib's hosting might pose practical problems with it, or if Mordib himself doesn't want it, or if a lot of people don't want it, or whatever... but not because "one member said he/she doesn't like it".

I take it I can assume you're happy for every rule to be added except 4? If it came to that.

Mate, as long as there's bullets and as long as there's babes I'm happy with whatever you bunch of lunatics say, I'm just along for the free ride

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 23 Mar 2005, 15:53

1 & 5 = Ground Rules. However does "spamming" include 1 line replies like "

" or "Me too" etc? This is classified as spam or even trolling on some other forums and it really annoys me.

IMO spam/trolling includes those who randomly pop up in the middle of discussions to start flame wars...

All the others can be "General Etiquette" IMO but dont have to be enforced rigidly.

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 23 Mar 2005, 16:06

bradavon wrote:Please get your facts straight before accusing me of hampering freedom of speech.

Huh ? I don't think anyone did, Brad. Well, not in the present discussion anyway.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 23 Mar 2005, 20:07

Were you joking Ice Angel? Because if not you said:

"I knew it... all your freedom speech never fooled me for a second."

p.s - I wouldn't classify that as spamming Grim.

ICE-angel · Post by **ICE-angel** » 23 Mar 2005, 21:47

That "Yi" in my original post (part of what you replaced with "..." in your above quote) stands for our mate Yi-Long. I was referring to him on that particular statement, which was indeed a joke

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 23 Mar 2005, 22:33

Sorry my bad I completely mis-read your post. I knew you meant Yi but thought it was a rant instead of having a laugh.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Mar 2005, 22:26

I've just thought of a few more rules (I could've sworn I'd already posted these???):

14. Monitor your sales/trades threads.

It really annoys me how members a few weeks later start a new trade thread because the original has a few replies. If you want to start a new thread fine but please let one of the mods know your original is now dead so it can be closed.

15. Only one active/open (i.e - not locked) sale/trade thread

16. When you want to sell a DVD you must give a for sale price

17. When selling/trading a DVD you must give what region it is and if it's from a multi-country region (i.e - region 2) also specify the country too.

18. When quoting you must also quote your source. This one used to be a hard rule here but has been some what forgotten. If you have one also include the link.

It's very annoying someone posting say XYZ but with nothing to back it up. I for one would like to read where it came from also.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 27 Mar 2005, 16:12

bradavon wrote:15. Only one active/open (i.e - not locked) sale/trade thread

I agree with your rule updates, except for the one above. Sometimes it's necessary to have seperate threads for when items don't relate to each other. For example the Dark Side mags I'm selling have nothing to do with my DVD trades. Also if a specific request is posted within an existing thread no one will see it. So unless a person has four or five threads on the one page I wouldn't bother too much about it.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Mar 2005, 00:10

Good point. I'd not thought of that.

I was really thinking of members who start a DVD thread don't like how it gets a bit full so a few days/weeks later start another.

Over the next few days (when I get a chance) I'll be compiling all this lot plus the findings into "proper" rules for Mordib to look at and then he can post a proper rules link.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 28 Mar 2005, 00:19

ABout the graphic pics 'rule': I just mentioned there should be a fair warning before hand, just so I don't open a thread called :'wow check THIS out' and stare right into a big-ass photo of an open skull being eaten by maggots or something...

I thought of this because a news-website decided to run an article about a butchered London guy, complete with a big close-up picture of the guy's dead, slaughtered body... which was luckily changed for a more suitable picture by the time I read the article, but still had a lot of readers being outraged over the initial picture...

About the bootlegging: I dont think we should be allowed to openly say: Mark, pass me a copy of 2046 through the mail' or whatever. I'm just talking about possible help for programs like Photoshop, like when I cant find a serial code for Photoshop, and perhaps one of the other users here knows a code or a site or whatever...

Or help with bittorrent and finding suitable sites etc.

Most, if not all of u still buy our DVD's and games etc legally... PC programs like Photoshop are only aimed at companies willing to pay those ridiculous prices, and the componies like Adobe condone people like us illegally downloading the programs since their users-base will increase because of it...

I doubt we'd risk any downshutting, since it's a; free-speech, and only speech... and b; all those sites offering region-codes for dvd players also arent being shut down, which is technically also illegal in the same way as providing codes for Photoshop or whatever...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 28 Mar 2005, 02:25

Yi-Long wrote:I thought of this because a news-website decided to run an article about a butchered London guy, complete with a big close-up picture of the guy's dead, slaughtered body... which was luckily changed for a more suitable picture by the time I read the article, but still had a lot of readers being outraged over the initial picture...

I'd hope no one here is sick enough to do that. If a graphic pic is to be used in an appropriate context I would expect anyone to post a warning in the title header.

About the bootlegging: I dont think we should be allowed to openly say: Mark, pass me a copy of 2046 through the mail' or whatever. I'm just talking about possible help for programs like Photoshop, like when I cant find a serial code for Photoshop, and perhaps one of the other users here knows a code or a site or whatever... Or help with bittorrent and finding suitable sites etc. Most, if not all of u still buy our DVD's and games etc legally... PC programs like Photoshop are only aimed at companies willing to pay those ridiculous prices, and the componies like Adobe condone people like us illegally downloading the programs since their users-base will increase because of it...

That's part of the problem though, Yi. What's acceptable to one person isn't to another. Is it really such a difference between stealing 2046 and Photoshop codes? It's all illegal as the law sees it, so I understand when Mordib says he was no part of it. My question was about public domain movies that have no copyright (ie. many old school kung fu movies made by companies that no longer exist). Is it OK to trade them? No one answered that point.

I doubt we'd risk any downshutting, since it's a; free-speech, and only speech... and b; all those sites offering region-codes for dvd players also arent being shut down, which is technically also illegal in the same way as providing codes for Photoshop or whatever...

Bullets is safe. The only concerns now might be moral ones.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Mar 2005, 16:39

I won't go over the Photoshop serial issue as on the one hand I agree with you Yi but Mark put it correctly when he said illegal is illegal.

Markgway wrote:My question was about public domain movies that have no copyright (ie. many old school kung fu movies made by companies that no longer exist). Is it OK to trade them? No one answered that point.

I didn't answer as it's really more of a question for Mordib. I believe PM's are work now so I'd pm him. He may have missed your post.

Personally if you own a legit copy of the DVD then I see no harm. As for trading actual copies which have no copyright then I'd assume that's a grey area for everyone concerned.

Mordib · Post by **Mordib** » 28 Mar 2005, 17:01

Ive got some advise on this one, its been suggested that if a movie is no longer in print and the copyright isnt owned by a comapany who's actively in the practice of rerelasing stuff then it would be fine. SSome examples to make things clearer -

a movie made 10 years ago that was owned by say MGM that has no planned dvd release date would NOT be ok.

a movie that was made 10 years ago and not only doesnt have a planned release date and was not owned at all or was owned by a company that no longer released movies would be fine.

this model has been tested in the US in concern to video games, whilst its bordering on the whole illegal/legal line it has been established that the creators of old material that no longer has any avenues for making profit off it are more than happy to see there material reincarnated and distributed as long as noone else makes any money off it either. Its the only reason there are so many emulators commercially available.

so an old skool kung foo movie that noone owned would be fine as long as you didnt make any profit off it, as would a rare episode of something considered lost. No money (beyond postage) must cross hands. and any abuse or hoodwinking of the system (eg claiming something is not under copyright when it is) would call an end to all such dealings.

how does that sound?

m.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Mar 2005, 17:28

That sounds fine but wouldn't it mean Mark who owns the DVD not be able to sell it?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 28 Mar 2005, 23:50

I'm not selling any of these titles anyway. Collector's trade only. Not in it for the profit. If I was I'd sell crack!

I've put up a preliminary list (and explained my choices). Take a look and LMK what you think. You can post or PM me.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Mar 2005, 19:17

Sounds like it to me...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 29 Mar 2005, 20:37

bradavon wrote:What's a VCD-R? Is it a copy of a VCD?

Yes.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2005, 21:05

Markgway wrote:That's part of the problem though, Yi. What's acceptable to one person isn't to another. Is it really such a difference between stealing 2046 and Photoshop codes? It's all illegal as the law sees it, so I understand when Mordib says he was no part of it. My question was about public domain movies that have no copyright (ie. many old school kung fu movies made by companies that no longer exist). Is it OK to trade them? No one answered that point.

I think anyone can clearly see the difference about discussing how to illegally obtain a movie you can easily get for 10 pounds, or a piece of software which is priced at such a high price that it's only intended for businesses (who can often get part of it back through tax-cuts, which we all pay for btw...).
Most of us here will only need a program like Photoshop for self-education, not proffesionally and/or commercially...
Personally, I need and have the program for my study. Downloaded it. Not felling bad about it either. I'm a student trying to get by. I NEED the program to succeed in my study (graphic design), so if it is priced out of my (or any other student's) range, then it's too bad for Adobe. Ofcourse, Adobe doesnt care, as long as you and I dont use it commercially, cause the only way they succeed in selling legal copies, is if enough people use and are familiar with the program in the first place...

Ofcourse, I know you already understood this (I think/hope), and doesnt change the fact it's technically illegal. Well... so is making death-wishes, which happen all the time at forums each and every day.

Damaging a speed camera by the die of the road is illegal, right!? Would this site be in trouble if I told you, Mark, that you can damage the speed-camera with some gasoline and a match!? Would it be illegal if I told you you can kill a guy by stabbing a knife through his heart!? No. It's just information. So how would giving eachother a lil help with for instance serial codes or cracks or whatever be any different!?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 31 Mar 2005, 21:31

The point is Yi it's illegal and could get this site closed down, in theory and at the end of the day (not wanting to become too strict) these are Mordib's wishes. Feel free to comment etc . . . like you are in topics such as this.

I see your point Yi but saying you can kill someone by stabbing them is stating the obvious if you were to go into detail about how to kill someone the most effectively (which is effectively what we would be doing) is also illegal. So won't be allowed, more than likely. I get the impression Mark kind of agrees with you anyway, in principle.

If you find Photoshop to expensive (which I do but I also find it overrated) get the nearly as good/as good Paint Shop Pro which is about 5 times cheaper.

Personally I'm a Corel Photo-paint fan. Having said this speaking for me personally I don't mind someone saying "I have Photoshop and I downloaded it". The point being giving details how you did it.

I'll have the rules sent to Mordib by the w/e I've not had a chance this week to look at them.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 31 Mar 2005, 22:03

I understand completely, just wanted to get my 2 cents in about all the greys between what's deemed legal and illegal...

...and all the hypocricy and all the fear etc etc surrounding it. Fear of being labeled a criminal, everyone pretending we either dont download at all, or pretending we dont agree with it (I personally dont download movies and/or games, but I can certainly understand why others might do it... I buy all my dvds and games on budget anyway

)

Like I said about Photoshop: I need it for school. We use PS at school so i also need it at home. No personal preference.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 07 May 2005, 18:06

UPDATE: The rules list is now complete and has been e-mailed to Mordib for approval.

07/08/05: I'll lock this thread until the time Mordib decides it's appropriate to finalise and make the rules official.