God!

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Dec 2006, 18:00

bradavon wrote:Personally I believe he existed but was an ordinary human being, and a prophet to boot.

He can't be both unless you think being a prophet for God is ordinary? And if you think he is indeed a prophet is it so far fetched to believe he's God's son too? IMO all these religious stories are parables (like the Tortoise and the Hare) designed to tell a moral lesson. Idiots take them as literal fact.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Dec 2006, 18:10

Markgway wrote:He can't be both unless you think being a prophet for God is ordinary? And if you think he is indeed a prophet is it so far fetched to believe he's God's son too?

Why? There is a big difference between a Prophet:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=prophet

And someone who says he's the son of god (you'd have to acknowledge that there is such a thing as god for starters). As for a prophet being ordinary, the word ordinary is being used far to flippantly IMO. Yes I'd say to be a prophet is ordinary if pushed. It's another state of what it is to be human.

Just because I don't believe everything a prophet may say it doesn't mean I don't think it's ordinary.

Lastly I can't believe you're comparing the Tortoise and the Hare to Christianity. Like I said there is evidence that parts of it are true.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Dec 2006, 18:19

The Bible is just a compendium of stories designed to tell a moral truth.

They may be based on certain people who existed and certain events.

But as a book it's as much fiction as fact.

Does anyone here really believe in Adam and Eve and the talking Snake? Or that Christ died and came back to life?

Some of these fantasies have about as much credibility as Scientology.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 03 Dec 2006, 18:53

Markgway wrote:Does anyone here really believe in Adam and Eve and the talking Snake? Or that Christ died and came back to life?

I mean hey, people believe that a plane crashed into the pentagon and in Pennsylvania, although they have not seen it happen.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 03 Dec 2006, 21:43

How does the Tortoise and the Hare make a religious point? OK it's a fable but not a parable. It was just a short story written by Aesop. Did it actually happen, is there any basis of truth in it? Errr no.

I think Jesus probably did exist, whether he was the Son of God is another matter (I'm not religious so I would say no).

Hilarious post from Romero

Of course you wouldn't take a 2 year old to see Passion, what about a 13 or 15 year old? I think they could be educated by the film. I think it was well made and well acted. The violence was OTT but it had to be, to show how He suffered. Why do you think the film is called The Passion?
As Brad says parents must be honest, good people, I don't think even the Christian right in the US would be that stupid, taking toddlers to see Passion LMAO

I'm sure they would be taught about Jesus with a children's story.

LD is that not a bit below the belt?

You can hardly compare that (taking any random event you didn't "see") and compare it with Bible stories IMO. In that case, I'm sure people like Bruce Lee/John Lennon are actually still alive, I never "saw" their deaths. No-one on this forum did.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 03 Dec 2006, 22:38

How does the Tortoise and the Hare make a religious point? OK it's a fable but not a parable. It was just a short story written by Aesop. Did it actually happen, is there any basis of truth in it? Errr no.

I think Jesus probably did exist, whether he was the Son of God is another matter (I'm not religious so I would say no).

Hilarious post from Romero Very Happy Of course you wouldn't take a 2 year old to see Passion, what about a 13 or 15 year old? I think they could be educated by the film. I think it was well made and well acted. The violence was OTT but it had to be, to show how He suffered. Why do you think the film is called The Passion?
As Brad says parents must be honest, good people, I don't think even the Christian right in the US would be that stupid, taking toddlers to see Passion LMAO Very Happy I'm sure they would be taught about Jesus with a children's story.

Exactly, well said Mr. Grim.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Dec 2006, 02:51

I think teenagers are old enough to make up their own minds, but it's not like they should be forced by their parents/school to watch it. Educational? Dubious, since you're only learning hardline Catholicsm, and I fail to see how that's relevent to most people. Unless you're a Catholic I can't honestly see what you would get out of the experience. That's not to say it isn't a cinematic story, nor well-made, but hardly relevant in the 21st century as historical fact. Schindler's List it ain't. Maybe I meant fable rather than parable. My point regardless was: both are stories designed to impart morality to the masses not literal happenings.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 04 Dec 2006, 06:33

Markgway wrote:Unless you're a Catholic I can't honestly see what you would get out of the experience.

I'm a lapsed Catholic and got zilch out of the film.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 04 Dec 2006, 08:57

No one should be forced to watch it Mark, just saying it could be used as an educational tool in RE class if you're learning about Christianity maybe?

I beleive younger students are allowed to see 18 rated films in school if its for education purposes (at college most of us were younger than 18 - but I wasn't). When I was 15/16 we watched Jamon Jamon in Spanish class

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Dec 2006, 18:17

Yeah, I was just saying it's wrong to force pre-teens to watch a film which they may find traumatic, and also brainwash them into believing religious fiction as fact. People forget that children aren't adults and can't comprehend on the same level. The reason the majority of people follow religion the world over is because they were indocturned as children. The precentage of adults who choose to get into a religion for the first time is comparitvely minor. Hell, if my parents were strict Christians I'd probably be singing hyms every Sunday, because that's all I would know and except as truth. And while we're at it: I don't believe RE should be taught at school. I suffered it when I was younger, but by the time I was in sixth year (high school) I just skipped class. I wouldn't allow my kids to be taught it either.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 04 Dec 2006, 19:28

also brainwash them into believing religious fiction as fact.

You can take a 6-year old to see Star Wars.
It won't brainwash him into believing Wookies are real.

BTW: I think Jesus did exist.
He was very smart but insane (hey, his own mother doesn't even remember conceiving him). But, to be fair, he was pretty much raised on the street by crazy scientists and philosophers.

I wonder what kind of drugs he was taking, though.
Must've been some pretty strong stuff ("Hey, dude, I'm the son of God !"). :hippy2:

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2006, 20:11

Markgway wrote:but it's not like they should be forced by their parents/school to watch it.

Children are forced by their very nature. We're forced into a name we didn't pick, forced to be meat eaters, forced into a language we wouldn't otherwise speak, force into this and forced into that.

Children by their very nature are forced into all sorts of things. Are you telling me you were never forced to do something you didn't want to do or believed in at the time?

Religion is just another facet of a parents education for their kids. I'm not religious but I do know a big part of this is because my parents aren't, if they were it's likely I would be. We may not like it but we are a to a big part a product of our parents beliefs and opinions.

I can't stand anything more than skimmed milk, guess what my parents are the same.

Once a child grows into an adult or teenager she/she is then equipped to fully make up their own mind if they agree/disagree but until then it's the parents/schools responsibility to teach them about such things.

Who exactly if not the parents (then schools) should we learn about religion from? How can we make an informed decision if we don't know the facts and in this case the history behind Christianity?

You don't honestly think a child is fully mature to make such a decision, with zero help along the way? I'm not saying a teenager isn't mature enough to grasp things but I am saying a teenager by his/her nature will switch off if he/she isn't prompted by their parents/school to learn.

We may as well not bother going to school as in your opinion children are intelligent enough to know best from the offset.

Markgway wrote:Educational? Dubious, since you're only learning hardline Catholicsm, and I fail to see how that's relevent to most people.

Like I said how can you learn without learning about both sides. You may not agree but you need to know about it.

Sure you'll only hear one point of view in The Passion so then also teach your child about Islam, Jedism, about being agnostic and even about atheism.

Just because a subject only deals with one aspect of religion and humanity it doesn't mean we should immediately ignore it, especially if we ourselves as adults agree with said religion or opinion.

Markgway wrote:Unless you're a Catholic I can't honestly see what you would get out of the experience.

You'd learn something about Christianity which you may not have known already. Which you may not like but like Islam, Jedism, Buddhism and so forth are a massive part of what it is to be human.

Markgway wrote:but hardly relevant in the 21st century as historical fact. Schindler's List it ain't.

So because it's not entirely or even 100% based on fact (you have no more proof that it's all completely made up then the person so says it's all 100% accurate) it should be immediately ignored?

Markgway wrote:My point regardless was: both are stories designed to impart morality to the masses not literal happenings.

Maybe but then millions of people get great karma and piece of mind from religion. Should they be ignored as weirdos?

Every religion has just as much a good as bad side.

It is wrong IMO to ignore religion just because you happen not to abide by it. To dismiss The Passion just because you're not Catholic is frankly missing the point and dare I say it very small minded.

Markgway wrote:Yeah, I was just saying it's wrong to force pre-teens to watch a film which they may find traumatic, and also brainwash them into believing religious fiction as fact.

Aren't you contradicting yourself now. I thought kids were mature enough to work this out for themselves?

Are you next going to suggest banning adults from seeing it as millions of them are also easily swayed just by seeing the 1 film? Agreed it's not a kids film but that's because it's violent not because of the message it brings with it.

IMO more modern films about religion such as The Passion should be made. Film is one of the best mediums (higher than books) to reach out to the masses who may just learn something they during school switched off to.

Markgway wrote:I wouldn't allow my kids to be taught it either.

Your kids would then grow up very ignorant of the religions of the world (RE teaches all not just Christian religion), just because you as a parent don't agree with what is being said.

Oh and you'd be home schooling your kids.

Agreed it is wrong for kids to be forced to sing hymns but that's entirely different from a structured lesson on religion. Then again it's wrong to be forced to take part in sports day (I detested sports day), which comes back to kids being forced by their very nature.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Dec 2006, 20:31

tom2681 wrote:You can take a 6-year old to see Star Wars.
It won't brainwash him into believing Wookies are real.

You mean they're not??

BTW: I think Jesus did exist.

Hey, I'm sure there was a Jewish carpenter named Jesus, and he probably did get crucified by those nasty Romans... but as for the rest........

hey, his own mother doesn't even remember conceiving him

Joe: Bloody hell, bitch! How'd you get up the duff? We haven't done it since last year!

Mary: I've no idea, honest.

Joe. Yeah, right, you slapper! Been porking the mailman again? We're getting a divorce.

Mary: Maybe it was a miracle?

Joe: A what?

Mary: Yeah, like maybe God did it.

Joe: You think?

Mary: Could be...?

Joe: I can live with that. Let's go to an inn and get this sprog out eh?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2006, 20:41

Hey, I'm sure there was a Jewish carpenter named Jesus, and he probably did get crucified by those nasty Romans... but as for the rest........

I've not read it either but I'm sure there is a hell of a lot more in the bible than just Jesus' crucifixion.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 04 Dec 2006, 20:46

bradavon wrote:Are you telling me you were never forced to do something you didn't want to do or believed in at the time?

Of course not, but nothing as dangerous, primitive and as divisive as religion. I happen to like my name.

I can't stand anything more than skimmed milk, guess what my parents are the same.

I drink semi-skimmed, I guess that's because my parents do too.

Once a child grows into an adult or teenager she/she is then equipped to fully make up their own mind if they agree/disagree but until then it's the parents/schools responsibility to teach them about such things.

But by then it's too late. Why not wait until a child is mature enough before teaching this religious stuff? Are they scared a child will choose wisely?

Who exactly if not the parents (then schools) should we learn about religion from?

Nobody, it's bollocks. In a secular society we should not be teaching religion in schools at all.

You may not agree but you need to know about it.

I need to know nothing about Catholicism, thanks.

Sure you'll only hear one point of view in The Passion so then also teach your child about Islam, Jedism, about being agnostic and even about atheism.

I'm not gonna teach my kids about any of that crap. If when they're old enough they wish to seek out religion that's their business. I won't stop them. But I'm damned if I'm gonna in any way encourage them.

So because it's not entirely or even 100% based on fact (you have no more proof that it's all completely made up then the person so says it's all 100% accurate) it should be immediately ignored?

In schools? Yes. At least as a singular subject. I'm not saying there should be no references to it in proper context as religon and history are intertwined.

Maybe but then millions of people get great karma and piece of mind from religion.

Smoking dope does the same without the hatred. I'd rather my teenager was a dopehead than a religious fanatic.

Should they be ignored as weirdos?

I wouldn't go that far... in general.

To dismiss The Passion just because you're not Catholic is frankly missing the point and dare I say it very small minded.

I'll self-flagulate immediately.

Aren't you contradicting yourself now. I thought kids were mature enough to work this out for themselves?

I said teens were not PRE-teens. Read carefully.

Are you next going to suggest banning adults from seeing it as millions of them are also easily swayed just by seeing the 1 film?

Adults are adults. Nothing much you can do for them if they wanna believe it. It's their choice.

IMO more modern films about religion such as The Passion should be made.

Nah, more films like Life of Brian.

Your kids would then grow up very ignorant of the religions of the world

Suits me. They're better off out of it.

(RE teaches all not just Christian religion)

I know. In fact when I went to school it was mostly about Islam. They even made us watch The Message. It was a surprise viewing so I didn't have time to fein illness and had run out of sore stomachs.

Oh and you'd be home schooling your kids.p

They do still teach other subjects at school -- I hope?

Then again it's wrong to be forced to take part in sports day (I detested sports day), which comes back to kids being forced by their very nature.

Well, then, your sports day is my religion.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2006, 21:19

Are they scared a child will choose wisely?

Are you not going to teach your child god doesn't exist? Same thing.

I'd rather my teenager was a dopehead than a religious fanatic.

Do you honestly think all people who have a religion are fanatics? It's the minority who are not the majority.

They do still teach other subjects at school -- I hope?

You said you'd not allow your kid to participate in RE classes. The last time I checked RE was part of the curriculum so you'd have to let them attend if you wanted your kid to stay in School.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 04 Dec 2006, 21:58

actually no, you dont have to allow your child to participate in RE there was a few sikh/muslim kids in my school and their parents requested that they didnt take part in RE and they didnt have to, same goes for any child.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2006, 22:51

I sit corrected. It seems very close minded to me but I sit corrected. It's not exactly going to help with their understanding of other religions.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 04 Dec 2006, 23:30

bradavon wrote:Sure you'll only hear one point of view in The Passion so then also teach your child about Islam, Jedism

I don't remember Jesus and his disciples using the force in Passion of the Christ - he'd be able to get off that cross soon as all the soldiers buggered off for a start!

Considering the immense part religion plays in the very culture that surrounds us, I hardly think actually teaching kids R.E in school is doing a disservice to them. Whether you like it or not, no matter how far you distance yourself from religion, it still plays a part in our day-to-day lives (unless of course you go be a hermit on top of mount everest or something).

RE is just a suject, all subjects in schools are taught with a level of professional detachment, they do not ram any particularly religion down your throat. Just as no Maths teacher isn't going to try and get every pupil in their class to study the subject at university, no RE teacher is going to insist their pupils lead a religious life.

Oh and R.E bored the shit out of me when I was at school as well

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 04 Dec 2006, 23:44

LOL oops

. You knew what I meant

, glad to see you're paying attention.

Oh and very well put. I couldn't agree more.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 05 Dec 2006, 00:55

bradavon wrote:Are you not going to teach your child god doesn't exist? Same thing.

Nope. Because A. That's not my opinion and B. Even if it was it's not my place to instill that in my children because it's not fact. What I'd rather do is teach them to think for themselves. Something which doesn't quite gel with religion.

Do you honestly think all people who have a religion are fanatics? It's the minority who are not the majority.

Fanatics? No, I wouldn't go that far. But anyone who refuses to even question their faith comes pretty damn close wouldn't you say?

You said you'd not allow your kid to participate in RE classes. The last time I checked RE was part of the curriculum so you'd have to let them attend if you wanted your kid to stay in School.

Nonsense. You can opt out on religious grounds, which is what all the Muslim kids in my school did. Only the white kids were forced to attend, which is a bit racist isn't it?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 05 Dec 2006, 01:40

Nope. Because A. That's not my opinion and B. Even if it was it's not my place to instill that in my children because it's not fact. What I'd rather do is teach them to think for themselves. Something which doesn't quite gel with religion.

Okay I probably put it badly. I'll try again. When your child is growing up and asks questions about religion, what are you going to tell them? To go and read read a book?

And what about day to day life by not telling them anything (i.e - as most people do in today's society) you're inadvertently teaching them to be non-believers. I'm not explaining myself very well.

If you're not taught when you grow up to believe as you correctly say it's unlikely you will later believe ergo without knowing it your kid will likely not believe without any decision of his own. That was my point. Am I making sense?

But anyone who refuses to even question their faith comes pretty damn close wouldn't you say?

To an extent but I'd also say anyone who is a non-believer is also by their very nature ignorant in the religion and therefore isn't really equipped to give a true judgement. So I'm not going to say a strong religious believer comes close to a fanatic.

You can opt out on religious grounds, which is what all the Muslim kids in my school did.

Shen has since corrected me, read on Mr. Mark

Only the white kids were forced to attend, which is a bit racist isn't it?

I'd say it's more the usual case of Muslims vocally disagreeing so as you say their kids can opt out but white kids as you put it their parents just being quite as lumping it OR probably more likely their parents not having a problem with it.

If it is as you say then yes it's racist but I seriously doubt that that was actually the case, just the perceived case.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Dec 2006, 09:22

Didn't you have to sing religion type songs in assembly at primary school Mark?

I know they're just songs, but I didn't like having to say/sing stuff I didn't beleive in TBH.
Brad I happen to agree with you point of view, I still think we should learn about religion(s). But idoctrination of children against their will is wrong.
Very well put Shingster, while I make the point about Sunday school type songs I sang (in a supposed secular school), it didnt make me a fundamentalist nutter

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 05 Dec 2006, 10:04

I used to partake in all the hymns (despite not being Christian) when I was in junior school and for a bit of high school as well, until I noticed that some people didn't have to attend the assembly. When I enquired as to why this was the case, I found out that they (those that were sequestered off to a room near the main hall) were Jehovah's Witnesses and so didn't have to sing the hymns. I thought to myself that I would have some of that action because a) it meant I could have chat/prat around with my best friend (who had his mum come into the school and proclaim him atheist

) and b) one of the girls who was a Jehovah's Witness I hugely fancied

.
I didn't mind having to sing the hymns before though because, as ever, it gave me an opportunity to mess about and just be with my friends. Until some teacher looked your way or something

.

For my money, atheism is as 'bad' as religion. Both adhere to a finality and dogma and therefore an inherent lack of movement from a held position. Agnosticism is the way to go. I'm not saying that one should have c'est la vie or que sera sera as one's mottos for life (although as mottos go, those aren't too bad), but you should accept that you can't possibly know the nature of God, but that we're all here for a better reason than a giant series of massive flukes. ACCEPT IT, DO IT NOW!
(That was supposed to be sarcastic, by the way, before I get flamed about it

).

As for Religious Education, I'm all for it. Everything was taught and there was no indoctrination or anything of that nature at all. I remember I had to get up one year and explain Islam to the rest of the class (its main facets, its requirements etc.). As I was one of only two Muslim kids in the entire year (which only had 3 'minority' kids as a total) and the fact that this other lad was in a different class, if I got something wrong, it didn't matter

. 'Course, if the teacher got something wrong and I knew about it, I'd jump on her. (I'd jump on her anyway, to be honest. I remember her because she joined our school when I was 14 or so, and our school was her first posting and she rather attractive and... er, we were talking about religion, weren't we?

)

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 05 Dec 2006, 10:07

Great post Kurgan

I'd say I'm agnostic BTW, rather than atheist.