Portugal 'to legalise abortion'

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 11 Feb 2007, 23:10

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6350651.stm

I can't believe in an EU country abortion is still illegal

"Only Ireland, Malta and Poland have such similarly strict legislation."

They're not alone. I never knew abortion was illegal in Ireland. Are we living in the 19th century?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 11 Feb 2007, 23:29

Abortion should be highly restricted and not used as a form of contraception which many in the UK do.

If the pregnancy presents medical risk to mother or child or was conceived without consent (ie. rape) then these are exceptions.

Otherwise the number of weeks should be drastically reduced to the point where when the baby is alive (i.e. when it's heart starts beating) no abortion should go ahead.

That's my stance anyway.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 11 Feb 2007, 23:33

im kind of on the same level as mark here about abortion. i disagree with it in general, but it isnt black and white, there are alot of grey areas, such as medical problems, rape etc.

the abortion limit is too high, i agree with that, seeing as babies have been born before this age and survived.

(wow we agree on something

)

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 12 Feb 2007, 01:01

Markgway wrote:Abortion should be highly restricted and not used as a form of contraception which many in the UK do.

I seriously doubt anyone would go through the trauma of an abortion as a form of contraception, what an ignorant thing to say, irrespective of it being right or wrong. They don't just give you a pill and ask you lie down for half an hour.

It sound like we agree it shouldn't be illegal outright. Even with the usual exceptions (rape, danger etc... which are a given) a woman should be allowed to choose. Even if it's highly restricted. To go to court over it is so wrong.

Shen wrote:the abortion limit is too high, i agree with that, seeing as babies have been born before this age and survived.

The alternative and reality is millions of more babies born to mothers who don't want them, correction parents who don't want them. They then would end up in a home, years of neglect and unhappiness.

Is that better? I fail to see how.

As you say it's far more complicated than a simple case of it being right or wrong, something the Christian (meant loosely) following choose to ignore.

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 12 Feb 2007, 10:20

actually brad, the use of abortion as a contraception is become more and more normal, especially in younger people. of course i dont say that everyone finds it easy, hell no, for some it has to be the hardest decision of their lives. but yes it is becoming a form of contraception there was a report on it a while back, that (especially) young girls sometimes are have 3/4/5 abortions becuase thye cant be arsed using the pill or condoms. that is no where near right?

and well if they lower the limit, maybe...just maybe....people might take respinsibility for their actions and use protection in the first place, though i doubt it, people are too stupid to learn from their mistakes. but if babies can survive being born before the abortion limit, then techinically imo its taking a life. and people wont agree with that, thats fine. i wont defend my answer, but that is how i have always thought of abortion for the sake of "oops it was a mistake" ... "man i am too professional to have kids" ... "i dont want this child" give it up for adoption then, there are many many peopel who want kids but cant have them, why do you have to take a life just to suit your own lifestyle?

lowering the limit even from 24 to 18 weeks gives people a chance to decide, its not an easy decision for some, i dont doubt that. but 24 weeks is too high, the child is a fully formed person at this point. whats right about killing it?

and its not a black and white argument either, there is the flip side to it aswell, but even that can be combated if people want too. there are many many more options than just having it aborted becuase you made a mistake and so someone else has to suffer for it.

maybe coming from a family where my mom had 7 miscarriages, and that even if i wanted kids, theres a good chance that i couldnt have them, has altered my perception on such things,

but brad things arent as simple as its an agonizing decision and a terrifying procedure, and actually up until a certain limit, it is a pill that they give you...it induces miscarriage. but once you get past a certain time then its a procedure that is damn awful.

but indeed it is ultimatley upto the person in question, irrespective of what we feel to be right or wrong reasons for abortion. however the political side of it, i think should be questioned seriously,

but its interesting how this topic came up, when actually once we return to school, this i what we are looking at in philosophy, if it is a right or wrong thing.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Feb 2007, 12:40

bradavon wrote:I seriously doubt anyone would go through the trauma of an abortion as a form of contraception, what an ignorant thing to say, irrespective of it being right or wrong.

You're naive if you think that doesn't happen frequently. I believe that past a certain point a woman looses her right to choose because there's another human life to take into account. Just because a baby is in the womb doesn't make it any less alive. Abortion should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances. A compromise would be a vast reduction in weeks. And there are plenty parents desperate to adopt unwanted children.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 12 Feb 2007, 12:56

I'm pro-abortion, but I agree with mark that we need to remain critical about the whole thing, and wont allow it after the baby is in the womb a certain period of time...

And yeah, I'm sure there are 'kids' out there who feel abortion is an 'ok' way to keep them from having kids, while not having to bother with condoms and pills.
Usually very very dumb, senseless kids ... but they are out there... and we should do anything we can to make them use condoms and/or the pill. I dont know how much condoms cost in the UK, but in holland they were pretty expensive untill recently when someone has begun producing and selling condoms with no profit margin, so they are very very cheap.

My girl only uses the pill. She doesnt like it, cause she's affraid of the potential side-effects and all that (hormones). She says that if she gets pregnant, she wants an abortion. Personally, I think I would like us to keep the baby, but I can understand her reasoning, cause I have just finished school, and due to a slight health-problem havent been able to get myself a job yet... so we are not (financially) ready to raise kids yet.
Personally, with my health-problem in mind, I wouldnt mind being a full-time at home parent TBH, but I rather get better first, make some money, and do everything in the right order.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 12 Feb 2007, 14:18

I would do everything in my power to stop a girlfriend having an abortion.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 12 Feb 2007, 15:09

Markgway wrote:
bradavon wrote:I seriously doubt anyone would go through the trauma of an abortion as a form of contraception, what an ignorant thing to say, irrespective of it being right or wrong.
You're naive if you think that doesn't happen frequently. I believe that past a certain point a woman looses her right to choose because there's another human life to take into account. Just because a baby is in the womb doesn't make it any less alive. Abortion should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances. A compromise would be a vast reduction in weeks. And there are plenty parents desperate to adopt unwanted children.

I agree with you Mark about the extreme circumstances part, but what about if it's an unwanted pregnancy like a rape or something, also if it is not a rape but a normal pregnancy, both the woman and man should talk through it together and choose what to do, it takes two to tango after all

As for adoption I would agree but what about if the child grows up wanting to know its real parents leading to a miserable child etc

And don't forget the harrowing case of the poor girl who was tortured by her parents (foster parents?) Some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids or any contact with them if they can't show them love. They're just plain evil

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 12 Feb 2007, 23:06

but brad things arent as simple as its an agonizing decision and a terrifying procedure.

I know, sorry if I made out I didn't. I was putting it too simply.

Markgway wrote:I would do everything in my power to stop a girlfriend having an abortion.

You'd prefer the child was in a home etc... the rest of his/her life? I've not read everyone's comments yet but am interested in an answer to this one.

Lastly can we drop the "exceptional circumstances", "if they're raped" etc... talk as that's a given, we all agree on and just stating the obvious.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Feb 2007, 00:34

bradavon wrote:You'd prefer the child was in a home etc... the rest of his/her life? I've not read everyone's comments yet but am interested in an answer to this one.

No, because I'd take care of it myself if the Mother didn't want it. There are TWO parents remember.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 13 Feb 2007, 00:51

Thanks for stating the obvious (I even said so in my second post). I was asking more generally, unless you'd take on EVERY kid which it's parents didn't want it.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Feb 2007, 01:03

bradavon wrote:Thanks for stating the obvious (I even said so in my second post). I was asking more generally, unless you'd take on EVERY kid which it's parents didn't want it.

Well, I was talking about myself in the quote you cited, so naturally I figured that was what you meant.

As for other parents, that's what adoption is for. They have masssive queues of parents who want kids, often because they can't have their own. Would you like to tell them about why you support routine abortion?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 15 Feb 2007, 00:04

Markgway wrote:As for other parents, that's what adoption is for.

Since when? To force a mother to go through 9 months of birth is not something I ever though adoption was for.

Markgway wrote:Would you like to tell them about why you support routine abortion?

Yes. A foetus is not alive it's a life but not a life, nor is it sentient; IMO.

Stop putting words in my mouth I never said I supported "routine abortion". I do believe a woman should be allowed to decide for herself and what is best for her + her partner, and I also believe a foetus is not a life and shouldn't be given the same human rights humans are given.

To give birth to a baby for the sole purpose to adopt it straight out is abysmal. Besides there are more than enough babies for all the parents who want them, if we're being technical.

Why can't women who've been raped be forced by the state to give birth then give the baby up for adoption? Using your argument.

Would you like to tell the mother she has to go through 9 months of birth because her foetus has a right to life?

I dont know how much condoms cost in the UK, but in holland they were pretty expensive untill recently when someone has begun producing and selling condoms with no profit margin, so they are very very cheap.

They're reasonable. It depends where you buy them, a shop or dispenser. They're cheap as chips on the Internet:

http://www.freedoms-shop.com/

Not that it's "ever" cost stopping people from using a condom.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 15 Feb 2007, 01:25

bradavon wrote:To force a mother to go through 9 months of birth is not something I ever though adoption was for.

Then don't get up the duff. Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility.

A foetus is not alive it's a life but not a life

Eh? It's alive from the moment of conception. What you mean is it's not a fully formed child. But to me that doesn't matter. Once the heart is beating it's alive.

I do believe a woman should be allowed to decide for herself and what is best for her + her partner, and I also believe a foetus is not a life and shouldn't be given the same human rights humans are given.

And I disagree.

To give birth to a baby for the sole purpose to adopt it straight out is abysmal.

More abysmal than termination? The horrible ending of a potential life? Have you seen what an abortion looks like?

Why can't women who've been raped be forced by the state to give birth then give the baby up for adoption? Using your argument.

Because rape is an exceptional circumstance and not something a woman has chosen for herself. She shouldn't have to bear that responsibility.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 15 Feb 2007, 01:27

bradavon wrote:
I dont know how much condoms cost in the UK, but in holland they were pretty expensive untill recently when someone has begun producing and selling condoms with no profit margin, so they are very very cheap.
They're reasonable. It depends where you buy them, a shop or dispenser. They're cheap as chips on the Internet:

http://www.freedoms-shop.com/

Not that it's "ever" cost stopping people from using a condom.

Well... we're talking about 13-14-15 year old teens, who might have a tiny tiny allowance and no job...
When I was that age I got about 5 guilders, which is 2-3 euro's of pocket money a week. I'm sure now kids in Holland would get about 5 euros a week and perhaps more...
Back then, I wasnt into sex yet, so I certainly didnt think about wasting money on condoms I wasnt gonna use, especially not when a package of durex condoms were about 10-12 guilders or something like that (I think)

So yeah, for very very young teens I do think cost comes into it, and they wont buy condoms if they arent prepared to have sex yet. So when the situation does come up (among other things), they wont have a condom on them.
If condoms are very cheap, kids will also have easier access to them. They might still not buy them themselfs, but schools or other organisations can throw them into some kind of packages to give to the kids. When condoms become cheaper they will be more widely available.

For older kids who usually do have money, I do agree that money isnt an issue when it comes to condom... although you do feel you already get fucked for having to pay so much for a pack of durex.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 15 Feb 2007, 02:50

Markgway wrote:Then don't get up the duff. Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility.

Seems like I'm being a little too 'schooly', but I thought that everybody knew that even if precautions are taken, you can still get pregnant. What then? What if you thought you'd made the decision not to have a child by virtue of using contraception and yet you ended up pregnant?

Eh? It's alive from the moment of conception. What you mean is it's not a fully formed child. But to me that doesn't matter. Once the heart is beating it's alive.

I draw a distinction (and you'll find that a lot of people have opinions on this, which I'll address underneath). I don't consider an embryo to be a life. It's just a collection of cells.
A foetus, however, exhibit traits that move it from being 'just a collection of cells'. Aside from anything else, it's more dangerous to carry out an abortion at later stages.

What my points above boil down to is the fact that I am pro-choice; it's a woman's body, she should be able to choose what she does with it. Men don't really get a say in the matter, as far as I'm concerned.
There are too many variables and permutations to be 100% concrete 'yes or no' about something as sensitive and personal as this and so, a choice should be allowed. Then the individual(s) involved, depending on their personal circumstances, can make a choice without being bothered by one group or another. If this offends you, then think about religion and how some rile at the thought of being told what to do, what to think; and then apply it to this situation.
If her principles or thought processes lead a mother to believe that an abortion is not the way to go, then so be it. But a woman shouldn't have to bring a child into the world that isn't going to be wanted from the beginning. Why bring a child into the world if it's only going to be resented? To teach the parent(s) a lesson about responsibility? Kinda harsh, on both the parent(s) and child.
Which is why I'm against banning abortion, and legalising it instead. If it's legal, it's a personal choice that can be safely carried out. If it's illegal, then the choice is still there, but there are far more desperate measures that would have to be taken to carry out the abortion.

Onto the more tricky ground of 'when', well, my personal opinion is an embryo can be aborted, but a foetus shouldn't be, without extremely mitigating circumstances. Danger to the mother is a huge cause for concern, but the fact that a foetus behaves as a child is also a huge factor for me.

People should be able to make their own choices on things.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 15 Feb 2007, 09:20

Markgway wrote:
Eh? It's alive from the moment of conception. What you mean is it's not a fully formed child. But to me that doesn't matter. Once the heart is beating it's alive.

When you wanna get REALLY technical, your seed is 'alive' even before the conception. So every time you masturbate, Mark, you're commiting mass-murder!

Shen · Post by **Shen** » 15 Feb 2007, 10:10

Yi-Long wrote: If condoms are very cheap, kids will also have easier access to them. They might still not buy them themselfs, but schools or other organisations can throw them into some kind of packages to give to the kids. When condoms become cheaper they will be more widely available.

you see here, you can get them for free from schools/nurses and "family planning clinics" you can also get the morning after pill, and speak to nurses about being on the pill...so here i condoms are free for people, especially kids, but not many take advantage of this.... of course then you have the whole sex education thing too (lot of good that does)

and i think i made it clear that im really in the middle on this topic, i believe a foetus is alive once it becomes past the collection of cells, and that in certain circumstances abortion ethics change. but i also think, abortion for the sake of it, is wrong, when you have people being irresponsible enough to get pregnant almost routinely and then having an abortion each time is wrong. but aswell i can see the flip side to making abortion illegal, though adopting every child that is born unwanted is an ideal, utopian idea, it aint gonna happen. but i just cant comprehend the killing of an innocent life, be it in the womb, as a child, adult or pensioner.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 15 Feb 2007, 10:29

The point about a foetus being alive seems fair, but I have to agree with Kurgan, the point about contraception not being 100% proof, its not just a matter of saying "Don't get pregnant" as Mark says.
I fall into the pro choice camp.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 15 Feb 2007, 17:27

Kurgan wrote:Seems like I'm being a little too 'schooly', but I thought that everybody knew that even if precautions are taken, you can still get pregnant. What then?

Happens VERY rarely. And I'm sure the majority of abortions are carried out on women who haven't ensured protection.

What if you thought you'd made the decision not to have a child by virtue of using contraception and yet you ended up pregnant?

C'est la vie. Take responsibility. We don't always get to make perfect choices.

I don't consider an embryo to be a life. It's just a collection of cells.
A foetus, however, exhibit traits that move it from being 'just a collection of cells'. Aside from anything else, it's more dangerous to carry out an abortion at later stages.

I would argue that abortion can be performed up until the formation of a heartbeat. Not sure how many weeks that is exactly? But to me a heartbeat equals human life (even in its early stages). Just because it doesn't gurgle and say "Mama" doesn't mean it's not a living creature.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 15 Feb 2007, 17:29

Yi-Long wrote:When you wanna get REALLY technical, your seed is 'alive' even before the conception. So every time you masturbate, Mark, you're commiting mass-murder!

Guilty as charged.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 15 Feb 2007, 22:34

Markgway wrote:Happens VERY rarely. And I'm sure the majority of abortions are carried out on women who haven't ensured protection.

C'est la vie. Take responsibility. We don't always get to make perfect choices.

I would argue that abortion can be performed up until the formation of a heartbeat. Not sure how many weeks that is exactly? But to me a heartbeat equals human life (even in its early stages). Just because it doesn't gurgle and say "Mama" doesn't mean it's not a living creature.

You missed the point I was making, but no matter.