31 dead in USA Unversity shooting

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 19 Apr 2007, 12:32

grim_tales wrote:I meant "Gun" not "fun" sorry
Yeah Shingster, but if US and Israel can have guns/nukes, why can't Iran? N. Korea?

Don't worry about it. There should be 'funcontrol' as well

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 19 Apr 2007, 12:52

grim_tales wrote:I meant "Gun" not "fun" sorry
Yeah Shingster, but if US and Israel can have guns/nukes, why can't Iran? N. Korea?

Oh I'm not going anywhere fucking near a debate on nuclear armament on these forums! I can't believe I dumped myself into the middle of a gun control debate! Only on these boards can posters leap from "handgun control" to bleedin' national defense!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 19 Apr 2007, 13:07

Iasn't the argument about gun control similar to nukes though, where its "OK" for the US citizens to have guns but not countries like Iran?

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 19 Apr 2007, 13:18

I feel every citizen has the right to bear nuclears! :mrgreen:

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 19 Apr 2007, 14:16

Shing wrote:we seriously need a "bashing head against a brick wall" smiley for these forums!

":" followed by "banghead" followed by ":"

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 19 Apr 2007, 14:26

Awesome. Will use this alot in the future

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 19 Apr 2007, 16:15

Shingster wrote:Sweet baby Jesus Mark, you have a unique talent for completely misinterpreting people's comments!

Call it 'a gift'. 8)

At what point in this thread have I ever suggested that the constitution of the United States cannot be changed? As I have repeated over and over again, I was merely explaining what the 2nd amendment means and not justifying it!

OK. But you're saying it shouldn't be changed then not that it couldn't. I'm saying it should. I guess we fundamentally disagree on that.

But the majority of Americans out there aren't ready to drop the 2nd amendment from the bill of rights and coming up with a new one.

Why not? Don't they care that innocent people die for their "right" to own guns. A "right" which serves little to no purpose in modern society. You can amend the amendment without dropping it entirely. America has the right to defend itself from invaders same as any other country - just remove the part about private ownership of handguns and automatic weapons. It's unecessary and anachronistic.

Why cause major political upheaval and widespread dissent amongst the populace when a ban on guns is not going to have a major effect any time within the distant future?

It will in time. Dissent will undoubtedly be the immediate reaction from Republicans and right wing nuts but over time this will quell. I can't think of a better time to start the process of erradication and dedicate it to the Virginian victims. The Democracts have the majority of power in the Senate. This is their chance to show they have the balls to take on the gun lobby.

Also, have you given any thought to the immense lay offs that would arise from a firearm ban (not to mention the profit margins of all those general stores that would now be faced with a whole bunch of stock they can’t sell)? It would have an immediate, seriously negative impact on some of America’s biggest industries!

When weighed up against the human tragedy of murder I can't honestly say that deathmongers going out of business upsets me one iota. I welcome it. Go and get a decent job. The excess stock should be melted down. The government would obviously pay compensation for this.

Finally, let’s not forget the extremely strong possibility that a ban on firearms would in fact increase the number of gun related crimes, when the carjackers, muggers, and armed robbers realise that there's less armed victims out there to prey on anymore. (Which was Linn's original point back on page 1).

It will get worse before it gets better. But as I keep saying you can't do nothing. If America was Canada then maybe keeping a lid on would suffice but clearly it's not and there's an inherent sickness in the national psyche which needs to be dealt with.

At the moment I believe the majority of gun related deaths each year come from suicide by private gun owners

If people want to kill themselves that's their business. They don't need a gun to do it. I'm concerned about innocent people caught in the crossfire. If Charlton Heston's son was paralysed from a bullet I wonder if he'd be so partisan. I wonder...

America needs to go through a long period of social reform to completely change the air of paranoia that is deeply ingrained into the American way of life. Then, maybe some point in the future a ban on firearms would actually make a difference. Right now with the current social and political climate in America, I seriously think it wouldn't. In fact, I think it would probably make thinks worse.

Oh, I agree with that first part. Banning guns alone isn't enough. But where I disagree is when it should be done. I respect your opinion though. Even if you and Yi-Long see fit to mock me. I just have my own viewpoints (and as shocking as it might seem I'll bet there are some out there who would agree with me).

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 19 Apr 2007, 16:31

Lets put this back on track now

. A Couple of news points

1st. Oldboy is to blame
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1811

2nd: CounterStrike is also to blame
http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_ ... shtml?s=ic

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 19 Apr 2007, 16:44

I really would have love itw hen we find out his favourite movie is The Sound of Music, and his favourite videogame was Viva Pinata or something.

Aw man... so many idiots seem to have landed themselfs fine jobs as reporters.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 19 Apr 2007, 17:05

Markgway wrote:Oh, I agree with that first part. Banning guns alone isn't enough. But where I disagree is when it should be done. I respect your opinion though. Even if you and Yi-Long see fit to mock me. I just have my own viewpoints (and as shocking as it might seem I'll bet there are some out there who would agree with me).

Hehe, well my gentle mocking was more out of exacerbation from you not getting the point of my argument when I was repeating myself a little too much in each post! But anyway I honestly don't think only my views are correct and you're wrong, this is a very complex issue were it's impossible to tell which idealogy would actually make a difference until America gets off its arse and does something (anything) serious to tackle gun crimes.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 19 Apr 2007, 17:54

Yi-Long wrote:I really would have love itw hen we find out his favourite movie is The Sound of Music, and his favourite videogame was Viva Pinata or something.

Aw man... so many idiots seem to have landed themselfs fine jobs as reporters.

Shingster · Post by **Shingster** » 20 Apr 2007, 17:05

slasher13 wrote:Lets put this back on track now . A Couple of news points

1st. Oldboy is to blame
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1811

2nd: CounterStrike is also to blame
http://www.newsmax.com/scripts/printer_ ... shtml?s=ic

The irony of those articles is that the fact this 23yr old South Korean/American male is a fan of the highest profile SK film Stateside of all time and part of the online gaming community are about the most normal fucking things I've read about the guy. Everything else about him screams NUTTER!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 20 Apr 2007, 17:33

I think they said he was mimicking the pose used on one of the posters for Oldboy (the one with the hammer).
You're right though, I don't see whats up, he liked Oldboy - so what? I thought Oldboy was great - doesnt mean I want to go and attack people with a gun/hammer

the68monkey · Post by **the68monkey** » 24 Apr 2007, 01:42

I've remained silent on this topic, mainly because it hits so close to home (literally). When a tragedy of this proportion happens, everybody wants to play the blame game and pinpoint exactly what went wrong, and when and where. I can understand the public's natural tendency to want to know everything possible about the shooter -- hell, even I wanted to learn as much as possible about him! We want that reassurance that SOMETHING in his history shows that this was NOT a normal human being, and there were clear signs that he was a disturbed individual. And yes, those reassurances are there, I've found. Yet still, people want to point fingers.

It was the bullying! It was those violent video games! It was a failure of gun control! It was those corrupted South Korean films!

The truth is that it was a sick individual. It was a sick individual who was ostracized from his peer group, who fantasized about revenge. It was a sick individual who made his peers feel uncomfortable and threatened, who drove professors to remove him from their classes. It was a sick individual who photographed and stalked other students, prompting the police to have him committed for a short stay in a psychiatric hospital. It was a sick individual who ticked off all of the warning signs of a dangerous individual, yet never stepped over the line of what is legally unacceptable. . . until it was too late.

Was it the fault of video games and violent films? Of course not. But there's no denying that these types of media feed the revenge fantasies of an already sickened mind. Was it a failure of the mental health system? Absolutely. Cho Seung-Hui never should have been released so readily and deemed "not a threat" to himself or others. Was it a failure of the American laws on gun control? Without a doubt. Gun control lobbyists have tried for YEARS to get stricter laws in place, but the gun industry and the NRA is a very powerful force in Washington. Have you heard of the Million Mom March? Brady Legislation for stricter gun control? Probably not. You only want to categorize ALL Americans as a bunch of gun-toting yahoos who don't want anybody to fuck with their constitutional rights.

So do us all a favor and lay off whatever your agenda is for pointing fingers or making fun of Americans. 32 wonderful people died last Monday due to the actions of a very sick individual. We need your support and sympathy in our grief, not your damned finger-pointing.

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 24 Apr 2007, 08:30

hey the68monkey,

So do us all a favor and lay off whatever your agenda is for pointing fingers or making fun of Americans. 32 wonderful people died last Monday due to the actions of a very sick individual. We need your support and sympathy in our grief, not your damned finger-pointing.

Errr who was that directed to? I didn't think anyone here was making fun of americans, but they was debating the issue. Agreed, I do feel sorry and my heart does go out to those family who are affected by this, but my news and points of views was how the media can distort what is a sick individual, into something else.

Please I do not mean any offense when I say the following, but I feel that American themselves from what I have seen over the past couple of years, is that they do not display any grief over what happens to other people in other country. There has been much destructions, millions of people have been killed including small children, yet no one crys for them, no one supports them and what happens to them is hardly in the western news.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Apr 2007, 09:48

Interesting post 68Monkey, I didnt know all of that. I think we are very quick to "blame" games and films as well.
I hear what Slasher is saying, but its not as if this tragedy got covered just because they were US students. It would have been the same if the students had been French, UK, or Chinese etc

slasher13 · Post by **slasher13** » 24 Apr 2007, 11:15

grim_tales wrote:but its not as if this tragedy got covered just because they were US students. It would have been the same if the students had been French, UK, or Chinese etc

A few years ago, I would agree with you Grim, but now not so sure. If it was students in Iran, I really don't think we would have heard about it. If there was coverage, it wouldn't have been alot, just a small sample.

But in any case, this is a sad case, I do feel sorry for the students parents, and even for the killer parent as well, imagine what they are going through. You son has caused this evil act, I can't even imagine what they are thinking, or the other parents.

Just want to finally say anyone who was killed in the school - Rest in Peace

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 24 Apr 2007, 13:34

Fair enough. Well said

Also I agree with you I see no actual posts making fun of America/pointing fingers

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Apr 2007, 15:52

I'm sure we would've heard about a student massacre regardless of where it happened in the world. When terrorists executed children in a school in the Middle East (can't remember exactly where? Beslan?) it was headline news here.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 24 Apr 2007, 16:20

Markgway wrote:I'm sure we would've heard about a student massacre regardless of where it happened in the world. When terrorists executed children in a school in the Middle East (can't remember exactly where? Beslan?) it was headline news here.

Well...

On the third day of the standoff, gunfire broke out between the hostage-takers and Russian security forces. 344 civilians were killed,[2] including 186 children,[3] and hundreds more were wounded.

That was a HUGE incident/tragedy, so it would have been impossible to neglect it. Plus ofcourse it helped that there was live-media soon on the scene.

However, bombings in Iraq happen each and every day. Students and civilians are killed. It gets a mention on the news, as in they name the statistics, and that's it. In places like Afghanistan the Taliban are often attacking schools, because they're upset about girls being schooled.
In Indonesia terrorists are also attacking schools and killing students.
In many african countries, and places like Sri Lanka and Cambodia, rebels go into schools, murder, and grab little boys and take them with them to make them into child-soldiers/rebels.
There is so much shit going on in the world, you could fill 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, full of human tragedies and stuff to get outraged and upset about.

We dont. We focus our attention on our own, local dramas, which is normal I guess. CNN and all the other american news-broadcasters are focussing on Virg. Tech, cause it's a huge drama that has taken place in THEIR community, and affected THEIR kids. Our own western media (Europe) gets alot of it's news from America, we feel 'attached' to America for all sorts of reasons, we have lots in common, so it's also a big story for us over here. We have a lot less in common with Africans, Asian, South Americans, etc... so we dont hold much interests for what's going on over there, so the focus also isnt on those countries and THEIR tragedies.

TBH, it doesnt bother me that much. yeah it's 'unfair' that 33 dead american students have been in the media spotlights for over a week orso now, when you compare it to the hundreds of innocent people dying in Iraq alone each and every week... but it has to do with interests, connections, ratings, etc etc.
people wanna hear and learn about what happened at Tech, cause it was a huge bombshell that happened in their community. It was unexpected, it was dramatic, it had the 1 psycho bad guy everyone could blame (plus point fingers at videogames, movies, etc), and feel all united about our outrage and our opinions, as in we KNOW who the bad guy is, we know the innocent victims, and it's a real black-and-white issue. Good vs Evil. Innocent vs. Guilty. etc.

When you pay attention to all the other dramas, there is a lot more explaining to do to the viewers, they cant relate, they wont care, it wont get the ratings, etc etc... so they dont pay much attention to all the other tragedies in the world.

So I can certainly understand why there is so much focus on stuff like this, while other stuff seems to get ignored.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 25 Apr 2007, 15:49

Good post Yi-Long.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 25 Apr 2007, 17:32

Mark agrees with Yi's post! Run for the hills!

For the record I too think that is a fine post

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 25 Apr 2007, 18:16

grim_tales wrote:Mark agrees with Yi's post! Run for the hills!

That's pretty colse to what I wa sthinking when I read that complimentary post by Mark

I was starting to doubt myself: had I written stuff which might have been wrong? Has Brad perhaps edited my post into some jibberish only he and Mark would agree with!? But I read my post again just to make sure, and everything seems to be fine...

...so 2nd option might be Mark misreading and misunderstanding my post...

or very maybe a 3rd option: mark might have actually read my post, understood all of it at his first go, and agreed with it! In which case Yayyyy!

For the record I too think that is a fine post

Seriously though, both of you, thanks

It seems very often on these boards people fly at eachothers throat, and in the end it's all over someone misunderstanding someone else's post or whatever. Not just this board btw, but pretty much any board. (except for the boards on MENSA, where people really seem to 'get' what I'm saying)

the68monkey · Post by **the68monkey** » 26 Apr 2007, 00:28

Yi-Long wrote:(except for the boards on MENSA, where people really seem to 'get' what I'm saying)

Yeah, dream on!

We banned you a LONG time ago.

And yes, liked your post. 8)

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 26 Apr 2007, 00:38

Hey, what do you guys think MENSA stands for?

Mark's Elite Naturally-Special Association.

I originally intended to call it:

Class Union of Natural Talent

But for obvious reasons changed my mind.

8)