Hard Target

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Dec 2005, 11:38

Not sure this belongs in Mainstream or not..

Whats the way to go to get the best/most uncut DVD of this? I *think* the R2 is the longer European print but its non anamorphic.

The R1 is the shorter edition.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:04

Avoid the R1 which is cut to shit.

The R2 is uncut (in fact, I think most regions are apart from America) but NON-anamorphic.

Ironically, the ONLY anamorphic edition is the R1. It was rumoured the Korean was 16:9 but apparently that's not so.

You couldn't make this shit up....

I await a re-release with baited breath.... in the meantime just get the UK disc as it's cheap as chips most places.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:08

Hmm.. I thought Gojensen said the Korean was uncut and 16/9 once.

I'll get the UK R2 then, I cant remember what version BBC1 have ever shown on the TV.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:11

I read that the Korean was uncut but letterboxed same as everywhere else.

Gojensen... where are you? 8)

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:13

According to DVD Compare.net (Rewind) it (the Korean) is Non anamorphic and the packaging is incorrect

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:40

Yes but you CANNOT get the Korean dvd so it doesnt matter anyway, its very very long OOP.

Just get the cheap UK dvd and get iot over with, I have the extended uncut directors work print on dvd too, papa picture, but the films super dooper violent and more rounded too.

One day we will get a special edition, well no acctually we never will ever!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:53

How long is the workprint? Is this different from the European print? I didnt know of this

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 07 Dec 2005, 12:59

Its very very different and not available at all apart from bootlegs, Its very different from the normal version thats legally avaible, but the quality of appaulingly bad sadly as its from VHS dodgy copies, but still worth a watch if you like the film. Heres some basic info on iot, it has a lot more than this says thats for sure people are shot hundreds of times instead of a few.

The Director's Cut version is 116 minutes long, including about 20 minutes of graphic footage originally removed to avoid an NC-17 rating. Scenes Included in the 116min Directors Cut Include:

* Additional dialog at the beginning where Van Cleef tels Lopaki (the guy with the arrows) that he shoots like a buffoon and next time he will charge him double.
* The ear cutting scene is intact.
* A three minute scene of dialog between Natasha and Chance which takes place in Chance's apartment. She is patching him up after the beating he got while looking for dog tag, he puts the moves on her, she leaves then comes back saying she has changed her mind. A still from this scene appears on the liftout that comes with the American DVD release.
* While Fouchon is playing the piano there are several shoots of news or documentary footage showing elephants, deer etc being shot down by hunters. This is probably the most disturbing scene in the film.
* Before Fouchon drops the letter opener on the floor at the coroners house he has additional dialog that describes what happens when a hunter dies in Africa.
* When Roper dies he is shot then gets up and is then hit with another volley of bullets.
* When Chance and Natasha firt meet up with Douvee and Chance jump around and start singing before Chance introduces Natasha.
* Most of the deaths in the Mardi Gras Graveyard are longer and juicier (people being shot 30 times instead of 10 etc)
* In the directors cut the final fight between Chance and Fouchon (in which Chance utters the line "Hunting Season Is Over") is missing. Instead Chance does the runnup as Fouchon shoots, kicks him into the garbage pile, throws the grenade and Fouchon is blown up.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 07 Dec 2005, 23:44

romerojpg wrote:including about 20 minutes of graphic footage originally removed to avoid an NC-17 rating.

Nonsense. Very little of this deleted footage was removed because censor concern. I doubt the MPAA ever saw most of the stuff that's in the workprint. I'm not sure we can even call this extended version a Director's Cut because Woo has never sanctioned it. It's very common for directors to create many edits of a film before settling on the actual release version. Many of the scenes listed by Romero sound extraneous to me (though it would be interesting to see them as extras) and most of the violence removed for the R-rated cut was put back in the European version. I would really hate to have the animal killings in the movie and for that reason alone wouldn't opt for it over the Euro cut. As much as I love Hard Target it's not a film that needs to be 117mins long and I can see why Universal encouraged Woo to tighten it up - a very common occurance on movies - and re-shoot the ending. Because Woo has remained somewhat silent on the matter, making reference only to having censor problems, it's impossible to say exactly the version he would have released himself. Probably it would be different from any of the above. (Workprints are just that - not director's cuts.) And until Universal let Woo put his own preferred cut on DVD we won't know any different.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 08 Dec 2005, 00:06

Hey I copied that stuff from IMDB

thats why its bullshit.

But it has a massive amount of extra violence and yes a lot of it makes the scenes far better, its not just gore for gore sake I think it improves many scenes as the deaths flow better. The extra normal non violent scenes, well I liked them and we learn a lot more about each charecter and really its a better film with the new footage in.
Its a workprint and thats why I said it was, as it even has unfinished soundtrack in it, the way it gets around this is it takes music from other films like Aliens and a lot of other very farmiliar films

and hey they really slot into the film well.

Really the workprint is a great film and I just wish we could see a good quality version on dvd, but sadly that will never ever happen and the version I have will have to do.

The difference between the cut R version and the UK 18 version was big I thought, and when I saw all that cut stuff in the uncut UK version I was blown away at how well some scenes played with the extra gore, and not just the gore, but the talky stuff and extra shots here and there. But the workprint just extends it all over again and improves the film even more

so I started with the cut version, then saw the uncut version and loved it more, then saw the Workprint and hey it just couldnt get any better

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 08 Dec 2005, 08:20

There are several Korean releases of Hard Target (atleast 3). Last fall ERA (or was it Universal) re-released it in a limited quantity (it seems) - uncut and in 16x9 enhanced mode. Two weeks later Universal (or was it ERA) released a new version... shorter - either cut or PALified.

Someone at a forum verified this - but it's been impossible to get ahold of the disc. Nobody is selling this Korean R3 on Ebay and all retailers are out of stock. (Which in my opinion confirms the truth of this release

).

As for the US release, it's not cut to shit. There's a few clips here and there, most notably in the opening and closing of the film. It changes the pacing a bit, especially in the opening ... and removes a few still frames of the arrow piercing Doug Binder (Chuchk Pfarrer). Still, the quality of the R1 16x9 disc is not much better than the R2 4:3 LBX release (partly given the age of the disc, and partly given PALs increased resolution...)

As for the "extended" release... it was fun to see, but as it was "incomplete" (different music, colour correction was off etc.) it's purely for the purists. Especially given the state of the bootlegs (which all hail from a VHS screener... there's just so much a DVD Recorder can do with VHS material).

Further, the released film wasn't "sanctioned" by Woo either I think, as the studio took it away from him. Thus rumour has it that the "workprint" is the last cut Woo "sanctioned". Sam Raimi and even Van Damme himself was at some point involved in re-editing this flick. I wonder how great this would've been if they'd let Woo do his job... :-/

(Actually, the workprint may not even be Woo's "workprint"... for all we know it could've been an edit by Raimi or Van Damme, or someone else... as for that... I wonder if there are "several" workprints floating around... :-/ It's a shame this flick got buried...

)

As for the film... LOVED it

(Sure, you have to "enjoy" Van Damme to enjoy this film, but IMO Natasha (Yancy Butler) was worse! And I love the soundtrack

)

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Dec 2005, 09:29

Mark regarding "workprints" would Woo's long version of The Killer (the Taiwanese version) count as a workprint? I always thought Woo regarded the shorter version of that film as his DC.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 08 Dec 2005, 11:14

Grim, that's correct. Woo didn't have time to finish The Killer before the Taiwanese premiere... so for The Killer the "shorter" version is Woo's preferred vision.

Longer doesn't always mean better, or necessarily what the director intended. Which is why The Lord of the Rings trilogy is available in EXTENDED edition - and not a DIRECTOR's edition (as both represents the director's "cut" - just two different takes...). As for longer, ALEXANDER D.C. is shorter than the theatrical cut.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 08 Dec 2005, 11:22

Ridley Scott's "Alien" DC is shorter than the theatrical cut

For the record I've seen/heard the LOTR EE's labelled as "Director's Extended Versions"..

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 08 Dec 2005, 12:20

I think "Blade Runner" is also shorter in its DC.

So gojensen & romero... where did you guys get to see that bootleg of "Hard Target"?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Dec 2005, 12:26

romerojpg wrote:Hey I copied that stuff from IMDB thats why its bullshit.

You should know better!!

But it has a massive amount of extra violence and yes a lot of it makes the scenes far better, its not just gore for gore sake I think it improves many scenes as the deaths flow better.

Interesting. I think the editing in the Euro version is great so I would be curious to see the difference in the workprint. Do you have this on DVD-R?

The extra normal non violent scenes, well I liked them and we learn a lot more about each charecter and really its a better film with the new footage in.

Unlike yourself I'm only going by impression of how they sound so I'll defer to you on that one.

Its a workprint and thats why I said it was, as it even has unfinished soundtrack in it, the way it gets around this is it takes music from other films like Aliens and a lot of other very farmiliar films and hey they really slot into the film well.

Right, that's what I was getting at. Some fans would swear that this is a director's cut, when it's nothing for the sort. It's just an early version of what Woo MIGHT have put out. Multiple edits are produced before a final release print is struck. The only thing we do KNOW is that the MPAA interfered. This is purely a hunch, but I would suggest that the Euro cut is actually the version Woo submitted to the MPAA first time round and Universal had blessed for release. Woo confessed he toned the violence down BEFORE submitting the film to the MPAA. I'd love to hear Woo talk more on the subject. An audio commentary please!!

Really the workprint is a great film and I just wish we could see a good quality version on dvd, but sadly that will never ever happen and the version I have will have to do.

Never say never... unlikely as it may seem Universal could dip into their back catalogue for a Special Edition. Maybe the next time Woo has a big box office hit?

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Dec 2005, 12:35

gojensen wrote:There are several Korean releases of Hard Target (atleast 3). Last fall ERA (or was it Universal) re-released it in a limited quantity (it seems) - uncut and in 16x9 enhanced mode. Two weeks later Universal (or was it ERA) released a new version... shorter - either cut or PALified. Someone at a forum verified this - but it's been impossible to get ahold of the disc. Nobody is selling this Korean R3 on Ebay and all retailers are out of stock. (Which in my opinion confirms the truth of this release ).

Bummer......

As for the US release, it's not cut to shit.

It is. I've seen and compared them both. And the difference is roughly 2.5-3.0 mins. That's a lot of violence to be cut. The re-editing ruined Woo's composition and style.

Further, the released film wasn't "sanctioned" by Woo either I think, as the studio took it away from him. Thus rumour has it that the "workprint" is the last cut Woo "sanctioned". Sam Raimi and even Van Damme himself was at some point involved in re-editing this flick. I wonder how great this would've been if they'd let Woo do his job... :-/

I thought Van Damme and co took over scissoring after the MPAA rejected the required R-rating and not before. The idea being to cut the violence, which Van Damme allegedly did by adding in more shots of himself, lol. Again info on this is somewhat vague, but the US cut does have more close-ups of Van Damme than the Euro cut during the final shootout.

(Actually, the workprint may not even be Woo's "workprint"... for all we know it could've been an edit by Raimi or Van Damme, or someone else... as for that... I wonder if there are "several" workprints floating around... :-/ It's a shame this flick got buried... )

Right, there's so much we don't know...

but IMO Natasha (Yancy Butler) was worse!

It's funny to think she became an action heroine on TV.

thelostdragon · Post by **thelostdragon** » 08 Dec 2005, 12:44

Markgway wrote:
Really the workprint is a great film and I just wish we could see a good quality version on dvd, but sadly that will never ever happen and the version I have will have to do.
Never say never... unlikely as it may seem Universal could dip into their back catalogue for a Special Edition. Maybe the next time Woo has a big box office hit?

Which is where Romero's statement applies. Never.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Dec 2005, 12:52

Poor Woo. What have they do to you?

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 08 Dec 2005, 14:40

Yup I have it on dvd and hey its strange as I really dont know which version to watch most the time, good quality finished version on real dvd, or nasty looking workprint but lots of new footage. The thing is its just nice to see how much was edited out of the film and while some people dont think much of the film because its a Van Damme film (thats the ONLY reason some people dont like it!) hey I can see past that and like it for what it is, a great action film with some amazing action.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 08 Dec 2005, 14:45

Romero, you interested in doing a trade?

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 13 Dec 2005, 14:59

grim_tales wrote:Ridley Scott's "Alien" DC is shorter than the theatrical cut
For the record I've seen/heard the LOTR EE's labelled as "Director's Extended Versions"..

NO, the '79 threatrical cut is Scott's prefered version of Alien. Fox just labelled the 2003 alternative cut as "DC" as marketing move. Watch Scott's introduction on the 2-disc SE (from the Quadrilogy) if you're still not convinced.

Markgway wrote:
but IMO Natasha (Yancy Butler) was worse!
It's funny to think she became an action heroine on TV.

Did you ever see Witchblade? Fuck it was awful!

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 13 Dec 2005, 16:02

Eva,
Thanks

I have the 2 disc Alien SE but I've only watched the Theatrical Cut, not the "DC" yet.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:01

EvaUnit02 wrote:Did you ever see Witchblade? Fuck it was awful!

Nope, I'm just aware of it's existance.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 13 Dec 2005, 20:37

There are big budget Witchblade films comiong out next year

not made for TV crap, they may fair better I guess.