Another campus shooting

[Killer Meteor]

http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp- ... id=7544974

[EvaUnit02]

Ouch, they really need much much stricter gun control laws over there. Honestly fuck a few amendments of that outdated constitution written 200+ years ago, there NEEDS to be change. The right wing needs to stop living in the past, for the good of their people as a whole.

[bradavon]

What I find most amazing is whenever it happens (and it seems that a mass killing happens 3-4 times a year) there is absolutely NO public outcry to change any of the laws. You can still have that dumbass first amendment (sorry but it's dumb and outdated) and make your gun laws much stricter.

If that happened here there would definitely be at least mass talk of change and politicians would at the very least look into it.

The problem isn't always the laws though (California I think is one of the most violent states but has one of the biggest gun related fatalities) but the whole mindset of the American people, probably because of that first amendment. I guess maybe it does need to change. I believe Texas has one of the lower gun related crimes and everyone owns a gun there.

[EvaUnit02]

You can still have that dumbass first amendment (sorry but it's dumb and outdated) and make your gun laws much stricter.

I thought that the 1st amendment was "freedom of speech" and that the 2nd was "right to bear arms"?

[bradavon]

Yes it is, good point, whichever it is it shouldn't be there or more to the point it needs changing.

[Markgway]

Surely the "right to bear arms" is for a country to defend itself in time of war and not for any nutjob to own a lethal weapon?

[Yi-Long]

There is no public outcry, because MANY people own guns and feel they own the right to own a gun, and they CAN handle that right responsibly, so they dont feel a need to give that right up. Criminals will still have guns, so they feel they have a right to have them as well, in order to be able to protect themselfs.

I'm a bit in the middle on this. It seems too easy to get a gun over there, and too many people get hurt because of accidents, or stuff like this where people 'flip'.
On the other hand, 99,9% of the people ARE carefull and responsible with it.
It isnt the guns that are the problem, but those abusing them. We need better control on who gets a hold on those guns. That means background-scans, and controlling.

To be honest, they need to control the BULLETS. Just keep a record of who owns what and how much. A gun for protection? Sure. But you only get 1 clip, and as soon as you wanna buy a new clip, explain why you need a new clip, plus you have a waiting period of a week orso.
Max. 1 weapon a person, no automatics, no assaultrifles and shotguns, etc.
And just a very thourough screening of someone's mental state and history.

It's a difficult subject, tbh, and certainly not right/wrong. There isnt really an easy answer that will stop this kinda stuff from happening.

For example the Cho guy, who had it all very much planned out, filled with hatred and intent on killing as many students as possible: you cant tell me that if he wouldnt have had weapons (and he should have been allowed to have weapons), that that tragedy wouldnt have happened. I'm pretty sure he would have been making do-it-yourself bombs with timers and stuff like that.

Maybe there would have been a few less victims, maybe more. But that guy would have killed innocent people, unless someone would have recognised the signs and stopped it prematurely.
Which I think is THE most important thing. Instead of doping these kids up when they are dealing with depression or whatever, they should actually TREAT them and talk to them etc.

[bradavon]

Surely the "right to bear arms" is for a country to defend itself in time of war and not for any nutjob to own a lethal weapon?

Yes but I guess the trouble is they cannot (in many Americans mind) just go and change it as it's too important to many Americans that they're allowed to own a gun in case someone attacks them, their family or their home.

Obviously it was written during a time when the world was very different and people probably needed to own a gun.

I'm a bit in the middle on this. It seems too easy to get a gun over there, and too many people get hurt because of accidents, or stuff like this where people 'flip'.
On the other hand, 99,9% of the people ARE carefull and responsible with it.

The trouble isn't really to do with being able to get a gun (the gun just makes it worse) as someone who is determined will just use a kitchen knife or baseball bat but more to do with an entire nations mindset that guns are crucial to life and more importantly you shoot first, think later.

It's not the gun control (which is much easier to fix) but an entire mindset the American gonverment(s) need to change, but they won't even try.

It isnt the guns that are the problem, but those abusing them. We need better control on who gets a hold on those guns. That means background-scans, and controlling.

I don't know about Holland but right now I don't believe the UK does but we do have a knife crime problem.

It's a difficult subject, tbh, and certainly not right/wrong. There isnt really an easy answer that will stop this kinda stuff from happening.

Not easily, it will take time. The thing here is it's considerably worse in America not shootings in general but mass gun crime and in schools in particularly.

and he should have been allowed to have weapons

He was ill, you reckon he should've had access to so many guns?

[tom2681]

a week ago, on Feb. 9, Kazmierczak walked into a Champaign, gun store and picked up two guns — the Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun. He bought the two other handguns at the same shop — a Hi-Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6.

I'm loving this.
This really is america, isn't it ?

Buy as many guns as you like, kill as many people as you want.
Everybody will cry, but a week later they'll forget about it and let it happen again.

If that's what freedom is, I'd rather live in North Korea.

[bradavon]

A bit of black dry humour Tom?

[tom2681]

Well it's ridiculous, isn't it ?
Guns are for killing, not protecting.

Any culture that encourages you to buy a gun encourages you to kill people.

[Yi-Long]

I'm a bit in the middle on this. It seems too easy to get a gun over there, and too many people get hurt because of accidents, or stuff like this where people 'flip'.
On the other hand, 99,9% of the people ARE carefull and responsible with it.

The trouble isn't really to do with being able to get a gun (the gun just makes it worse) as someone who is determined will just use a kitchen knife or baseball bat but more to do with an entire nations mindset that guns are crucial to life and more importantly you shoot first, think later.

It's not the gun control (which is much easier to fix) but an entire mindset the American gonverment(s) need to change, but they won't even try.

Ow I agree with that, but changing that mindset is going to take a long long time, and cant be forced. It IS changing as we speak, as it's an ongoing topic in America.
And yeah, like I said before. Someone who is intent on killing WILL kill. If he doesnt have a gun, he might make a bomb, or start a fire, or derail a train, or whatever.

It isnt the guns that are the problem, but those abusing them. We need better control on who gets a hold on those guns. That means background-scans, and controlling.

I don't know about Holland but right now I don't believe the UK does but we do have a knife crime problem.

Each and every country in the world has problems with violence. It can be with knifes, or guns, or baseballbats, or poisoned darts or spears or whatever.
It's in our human nature to have hate, anger, greed, jealousy etc... and it will very often lead to violence. Nothing you can do about it.

It's a difficult subject, tbh, and certainly not right/wrong. There isnt really an easy answer that will stop this kinda stuff from happening.

Not easily, it will take time. The thing here is it's considerably worse in America not shootings in general but mass gun crime and in schools in particularly.

Yeah, it's just in their mindset. that whole country is build on violence and killing. It's in their nature and culture. The might rule, and when you have a weapon you have power.
Also, I feel it's the healthsystem. Too many people who are diagnosed with depression just get prescription drugs and that's it. And that's not a solution to the problem. In some cases it even worsenes the problem.
Here in holland, when you are dealing with depression, you get send from 1 psychologist to the next, and it goes on your permanent record etc.
You get treated, or you at least get people to talk to about it.
Finally, it might have to do with 'The American Dream' not working out for many americans, and yankees truly feeling they are 'the chosen ones', that God loves them most, and some of them get a superiourity complex or god-complex and feel they have the right to take someones life when someone else 'fails' in their eyes, or does something wrong (or are part of a large group that is wrong, aka 'society')
It's a combination of all these things.

Yet, it's much easier to blame videogames and violent movies, so let's do that instead

and he should have been allowed to have weapons

He was ill, you reckon he should've had access to so many guns?

My mistake. I meant to say 'should NOT', obviously.

[Markgway]

Any culture that encourages you to buy a gun encourages you to kill people.

Can't say I disagree with that.

[bradavon]

Well it's ridiculous, isn't it ?

I wasn't disagreeing with you

Each and every country in the world has problems with violence. It can be with knifes, or guns, or baseballbats, or poisoned darts or spears or whatever.
It's in our human nature to have hate, anger, greed, jealousy etc... and it will very often lead to violence. Nothing you can do about it.

Oh definitely but most countries don't have a pandemic of "mass murder" (outside of Africa!). I guess the big difference is America is part of the "so called" developed world. Not that that means a lot when you're dealing with human nature.

Finally, it might have to do with 'The American Dream' not working out for many americans, and yankees truly feeling they are 'the chosen ones', that God loves them most, and some of them get a superiourity complex or god-complex and feel they have the right to take someones life when someone else 'fails' in their eyes, or does something wrong (or are part of a large group that is wrong, aka 'society')

I agree with that.

All this "American Dream" bullshit gets on my nerves. I was honestly surprised when I was in St. Louis to see so many American flags EVERYWHERE! To me that's so Alien. If you asked me "Are you proud to be British?" I'd probably say yes but that doesn't mean I feel the need to wear t-shirts saying it or wave our flag. It should come from within.

Yet, it's much easier to blame videogames and violent movies, so let's do that instead.

For someone who is already ill they certainly don't help but agree they're not the root cause, that's bollocks and like you say an easy target.

[the68monkey]

My opinion, for what it's worth?

It has nothing to do with the "American Dream." It has to do with mentally ill people having easy access to legally purchasing deadly weapons. As an American, am I alone in my thinking, as comments here seem to suggest? Hell, no. Polls have shown that nearly 3/4 of Democrats favor stricter gun control, and about 1/2 of Republicans do, too! If you want somebody to blame, point your accusations at the NRA and lobbying power of the gun industry. Stop labelling Americans, in general, as ignorant yahoos with some feeling of entitlement to deadly power.

[bradavon]

a week ago, on Feb. 9, Kazmierczak walked into a Champaign, gun store and picked up two guns — the Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun. He bought the two other handguns at the same shop — a Hi-Point .380 on Dec. 30 and a Sig Sauer on Aug. 6.

I don't know how old the kid was but what the fuck is happening when a kid is ever allowed to legally buy or own a gun?

There should be a legal age restriction of at least 25 (21 is too young) to buy a gun, no excuses or deviations from this! A gun is just to much a powerful weapon to be given to a kid or even a mature kid.

I saw the photos on the news, he couldn't have been any older than 21 yet legally bought guns.

Then even then he was allowed to buy a "Remington shotgun". That's not a gun to protect yourself, it's a weapon that has no other use than to kill. Why would he legitimately ever need it?

The kid who murdered so many people in Virginia Tech back in only April last year used a Glock 9mm handgun too.

[bradavon]

My opinion, for what it's worth?

As I think you're the only (vocal) American on the forum your opinion is always of worth

Please don't feel got at. The wider issue is hard to avoid when it keeps happening in the same country. Yes it happens elsewhere (mass killings in schools/colleagues/universities) but the degree it happens is considerably less. I only know of one incident in the UK in the last 50 years. I personally find it incredibly alarming how often it's happened over the past 5 years alone in America.

Like I pointed out why is there no public outcry? Why is a solution not being talked about all over the media or in the Government? It certainly would be in the UK.

It happens so often that I would think a new law would have been passed years ago. Is a law now likely to be passed? I doubt it.

That's why I think people tend to make throw away statements such as "It's in their consituation " that can offend. People are baffled why it's allowed to happen again and again and again. No is saying it's going to be easy to fix but from what I see the government of the past and present is just to scarred to even bring it up.

There has to be a more fundamental reason than just "mentally ill people with easy access to deadly weapons". No matter how strong the gun laws are if someone is that determined "in any country" they'll get a gun. Yet no other country in the Western world has such a high level of school mass killings.

Charlton Heston tried to blame it on America's bloody past, he's right but as Michael Moore pointed out (I am specifically only citing one example from his film) other Western countries have blood on their hands too, some much more so.

It has to do with mentally ill people having easy access to legally purchasing deadly weapons.

I completely agree but I do have to beg to differ over why it keeps happening, as Yi and I have pointed out if it wasn't guns it would just be another weapon entirely. Do you disagree?

I personally see it as a mindset developed over centuries, encouraged by the second amendment that needs to be broken or at least considerably loosened. Am I even slightly right?

Polls have shown that nearly 3/4 of Democrats favor stricter gun control, and about 1/2 of Republicans do, too!

That is very good to hear. I didn't know that thank you, but it's just words. It's happening again and again yet no laws (correct me if I'm wrong?) are being passed to try and resolve it.

If you want somebody to blame, point your accusations at the NRA and lobbying power of the gun industry.

Good point. They certainly aren't helping.

Stop labelling Americans, in general, as ignorant yahoos with some feeling of entitlement to deadly power.

Don't you think most Americans feel it their right to own a gun? I'll alter that to "many" Americans. No one is saying most/many Americans would ever act on it but the percentage of Americans who own guns is much higher than in many other Western countries, that has to account for something.

The majority of Americans consider their freedom of speech to be ingrained in what it is to be an American, why is it unreasonable to assume the right to bear arms isn't also?

No one is also saying any American in per see is an ignorant yahoo. I'm sure Charlton Heston is a very intelligent man.

[Markgway]

I sympathise with Monkey. It does seem as though we blame all Americans for a percentage of their citizens, but in this case the problem is one of law and your law represents your country like it or not. If someone slags off Britain for its involvement in Iraq, I don't take it personally. I know that's not how it's intended. I am not my government, but I can't deny that our government represents "us". Make sense?

[bradavon]

I guess the difference is the ratio of bitching about America vs. other countries is much higher (or perceived that way).

The truth is simply that America is what it is and has a hand in the majority of the world's people, maybe not directly but American media and the life style certainly mops up the rest. So it stands to reason it's going to be discussed more. I hope that makes sense I'm a wee bit tired.

p.s - Yes it makes perfect sense Mark. I agree.

[grim_tales]

Surely the "right to bear arms" is for a country to defend itself in time of war and not for any nutjob to own a lethal weapon?

That's what I thought too. When that was put in the constitution, it went back to Revolutionary days.

[bradavon]

Come on Grim I'm sure you've got more than that to say

[grim_tales]

Well that was put in 200 years ago or whatever, so how is it still relevant? Does it just say "Right to bear arms" or "Right to bear arms in time of war"? Of course, a country should have the right to defend itself in times of war. And as shown by the Tony Martin case, a person should be able to defend themselves/their property if threatened (but not in the way he did it).

[bradavon]

Man that was a long time ago. You've got a good memory.

[grim_tales]

Thanks
"Yutz - guns aren't toys! Theyre for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the king of England out of your face!"
- Krusty the Clown


Aren't there background checks required to see whether the person is suitable to have a gun?

[Killer Meteor]

Yeah, but at worst they'll only limit you to one hand gun or less...Woo Hoo!
- The Simpsons