UK: David Davis resigns over 42 day terrorism law

[bradavon]

David Davis resigns from Commons:

Shadow home secretary David Davis has resigned as an MP.

He is to force a by-election in his Haltemprice and Howden constituency which he will fight on the issue of the new 42-day terror detention limit.

Mr Davis, 59, told reporters outside the House of Commons he believed his move was a "noble endeavour" to stop the erosion of British civil liberties.

Read on: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7450627.stm

[bradavon]

What are your thoughts?

I completely agree with David Davis. These are laws we've had in The UK for hundreds of years and the Labour government in a matter of years is managing to remove them. If you agree, there is a petition to sign here:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/42daylimit/

It only has a handful of signatures but it's worth spotting it's not been online long.

[Markgway]

I admire Davis for standing up for his beliefs. He's a politician I respect and I hope he gets re-elected. The government's erosion of civil liberties is a huge concern (ID cards, anyone?)

As for the 42 days extension... it seems to me that detention should be allowed for as long as it's deemed necessary to protect the general public, however, every two weeks the investigators should have to apply to the court for the extension, and if it's refused by the judge then the detainee must be released. There should be sufficient evidence presented before the court that more time is justified and that their not just on a fishing trip... Truth is most of those detained will be connected to terrorism either as a participent or witness and the chances of someone wrongfully being held for more than 28 days are fairly slim I suspect. I see these as emergancy measures not to be used lightly... but if they are to be used there must be stingent checks and court approval to keep the government in the right.

[bradavon]

As for the 42 days extension... it seems to me that detention should be allowed for as long as it's deemed necessary to protect the general public, however, every two weeks the investigators should have to apply to the court for the extension, and if it's refused by the judge then the detainee must be released.

I'd agree with that but AFAIK that's not part of the remit for the extension.

Personally I'm less concerned about the ID card, we have passports already. I don't think it will be compulsory to carry them all the time.

Truth is most of those detained will be connected to terrorism either as a participent or witness and the chances of someone wrongfully being held for more than 28 days are fairly slim I suspect.

Probably but IMO the risk is too great. It would ruin an innocent persons life. There are several cases where this has happened. South Asian people are already picked out enough as it is, they're a British as you and I.

I see these as emergancy measures not to be used lightly... but if they are to be used there must be stingent checks and court approval to keep the government in the right.

Agreed. Sadly the police and government do take them lightly at times.

[grim_tales]

If a person has actually been charged with terrorisn or is suspected, lock them up/detain them, OK. But locking up a person without even charging them, without any evidence, well thats just wrong! On what grounds can the police suspect someone?

[bradavon]

It sounds like both of you agree with David Davis, have you put your money where your mouth is and signed the petition? .

On what grounds can the police suspect someone?

You look South Asian or Middle Eastern, seems to be good enough sometimes.

[grim_tales]

Pretty flimsy if you ask me

[Markgway]

Personally I'm less concerned about the ID card, we have passports already. I don't think it will be compulsory to carry them all the time.

I'm more concerned about the ID cards since the 42 days detention is unlikely to affect me personally. The cards, the CCTV, the green nazis, are of concern to everyone, not just a tiny part of the population.

Probably but IMO the risk is too great.

But when weighed against a terrorist act, a bombing? Innocent people dying is a far greater concern that the odd terror suspect spending a couple of extra weeks behind bars.

It would ruin an innocent persons life.

Hardly. Having your leg blown off ruins your life. On the rare occasions when extended detention will happen and the suspect is then released without charge they will undoubtedly be compensated by thousands of pounds.

South Asian people are already picked out enough as it is, they're a British as you and I.

But if it's Asians who are guilty of terrorism of course they're going to be the focus? Not much point arresting people from Poland is there? As for them being Brits, mostly yes. But not the terrorists, and even among non-terrorists there is a percentage who don't consider themselves British, but rather Asians or Muslims living in Britain. There is a difference in loyalties.

Agreed. Sadly the police and government do take them lightly at times.

I have no love for authority in the UK as it stands, but I honestly can't see this 42 days being used in anything other than exceptional circumstances.

[grim_tales]

If they were actually charged with something, detain them for as long as it takes. But you can't just accuse a guy of being a terrorist because they're Asian or look funny. Evidence is needed.
I thought it was necesary to have an ID card in ADDITION to your passport? Do you have to carry your passport everywhere? No.
If ID cards help prevent crime and terrorism this is a good thing but wont the terrorists have them too?

[bradavon]

I'm more concerned about the ID cards since the 42 days detention is unlikely to affect me personally. The cards, the CCTV, the green nazis, are of concern to everyone, not just a tiny part of the population.

CCTV is certainly a concern. We have to carry many forms of ID cards and show them anyway, so that one doesn't really concern me.

But when weighed against a terrorist act, a bombing? Innocent people dying is a far greater concern that the odd terror suspect spending a couple of extra weeks behind bars.

Bush, Blair and Brown have done a fine job in making it appear the risk is higher than it really is. I don't feel in the slightest bit unsafe getting on a train or using the tube system in London. Yes America and The UK are likely the biggest target in the Western world but I do not believe the risks of being attacked are as high as the Government tries to make us believe.

Besides that's putting it very lightly, they're not given a cosy cell and Sky TV.

Hardly. Having your leg blown off ruins your life. On the rare occasions when extended detention will happen and the suspect is then released without charge they will undoubtedly be compensated by thousands of pounds.

That's certainly not guaranteed. The government only the other day said they "may" compensate people who're found to be innocent but have been locked up for 42 days.

I imagine being locked up for 6 weeks yet innocent could cause a serious emotional problem for you.

And even among non-terrorists there is a percentage who don't consider themselves British, but rather Asians or Muslims living in Britain. There is a difference in loyalties.

Well you don't consider yourself British and (I presume) you were born here, so what hope have they got .

I have no love for authority in the UK as it stands, but I honestly can't see this 42 days being used in anything other than exceptional circumstances.

IMO that's really not the point.

Britain already has significantly terrorism laws than any other European country or America too. I saw a report where American police came to The UK and stated they love it if they had the level of CCTV we do.

Do you have to carry your passport everywhere? No.

Correct but you do get asked to show a form of ID for many reasons already. Is the plan you'll have to carry an ID card everywhere? I'm not sure it is.

If ID cards help prevent crime and terrorism this is a good thing but wont the terrorists have them too?

That's part of the whole point, the government will then be able to in theory track them easier.

[Markgway]

Bush, Blair and Brown have done a fine job in making it appear the risk is higher than it really is. I don't feel in the slightest bit unsafe getting on a train or using the tube system in London.

Tell that to the people who died or were injured on 7/7. I'm sure they'll all be thrilled to know YOU feel safe.

Besides that's putting it very lightly, they're not given a cosy cell and Sky TV.

No, you have to get sentenced for that. Sorta like subscription.

That's certainly not guaranteed. The government only the other day said they "may" compensate people who're found to be innocent but have been locked up for 42 days.

It'll happen; you know it and I know it. But try getting compensation if you're a British soldier.

I imagine being locked up for 6 weeks yet innocent could cause a serious emotional problem for you.

It would suck... IF I was innocent. But the chances of a totally inncoent person being locked up for 42 days are very slim. Despite what some idiots like to think they don't just pick up random "pakis" and lock them away for a beating with rubber hoses! The authorities have a very difficult job and deserve public support.

Well you don't consider yourself British and (I presume) you were born here, so what hope have they got .

I am British. And I would certainly never do anything to harm this nation. If I hated Britain I wouldn't live here. And I wouldn't support those determined to destroy it.

Britain already has significantly terrorism laws than any other European country or America too. I saw a report where American police came to The UK and stated they love it if they had the level of CCTV we do.

I think the CCTV situation is ridiculous. It protects no one. The 42 day detention is a last stop preventative measure, and not to be confused with the Big Brother state approach of this government, and I think David Davis may have gotten the two confused. Also it's worth remembering that London has more Islamic terrorists than the whole of the US combined.

Correct but you do get asked to show a form of ID for many reasons already. Is the plan you'll have to carry an ID card everywhere? I'm not sure it is.

The government will have all your info on computer (which they'll probably end up leaving on a train to Ipswich). Fingerprinting, eyescans, it's scary shit, if you think about it.

[grim_tales]

Yeah Mark, but however slim, the chance of an innocent person being wrongly convicted is there. And you won't even be told the reason why your being locked up as you may not have been charged. An innocent guy Jean Charles de Menezes was shot because he "looked suspiscious"

[romerojpg]

Like it effects us anyway, stuff them.

[grim_tales]

How do you work that out? I don't wan't somebody being able to track where I am/where I'm going all the time, even if I "have nothing to hide".

[romerojpg]

Bollocks, if you have nothing to hide you should not give a fuck.

[bradavon]

Bollocks, if you have nothing to hide you should not give a fuck.

Like it works that way in reality .

Tell that to the many Northern Irish people who were wrongfully locked up for decades, only to be proven later the cops were crooked and they were eventually let free.

I do believe most cops/government officials in The UK aren't crooked but some definitely are. It's those with extra powers we should all be worried about.

[romerojpg]

You have more chance of being struck by a thunderbolt, and winning the lottery in the same day than being shot or locked up as an eeeviiillll terorist.

[bradavon]

Tell that to the people who died or were injured on 7/7. I'm sure they'll all be thrilled to know YOU feel safe.

How is that different from you saying only a minority will be locked up? Of course it's very sad but the "everyday" reality is very different.

But try getting compensation if you're a British soldier.

I completely agree with you there. We treat our armed forces like shit on the button of Gordon Brown's shoe. I have a strong dislike for being overly patriot but the American's really do treat their soldiers so much better. It's shocking how poorly we treat them.

Despite what some idiots like to think they don't just pick up random "pakis" and lock them away for a beating with rubber hoses! The authorities have a very difficult job and deserve public support.

I completely agree, however, it is still removing fundamental rights we've had for hundreds of years, no matter how you look at it.

I think the CCTV situation is ridiculous. It protects no one.

Agreed. Villains just ignore them. It can help to find the person after the fact but it prevents shit.

Also it's worth remembering that London has more Islamic terrorists than the whole of the US combined.

Yeah that is scary, but sadly true.

Personally I think it boils down to the simple fact (unless you're Mexican) Americans still on the whole a much more for multi-culturalism than we will ever be. Kids are forced to speak their pledge of allegiance every morning in school, that by the time they become adults they don't know anything else.

It's so part of the fabric of what it is to be American. It's a unique entity. Our terrorists are British born, American ones are not.

The government will have all your info on computer (which they'll probably end up leaving on a train to Ipswich). Fingerprinting, eyescans, it's scary shit, if you think about it.

They do in reality have a big portion of it already. Agreed the fact they keep losing it is bloody scary though. I'd hate to have one of those people on benefit and my details were just left on a train.

And you won't even be told the reason why your being locked up as you may not have been charged.

Exactly!

If the police have reasons to hold you for 28 days, they should have a reason to charge you.

An innocent guy Jean Charles de Menezes was shot because he "looked suspiscious"

To be fair, that is a very rare incident.

Like it effects us anyway, stuff them.

Whether you like it or not these people hold a British passport and are often born in this country. Legally they are as British as you or I.

Contrary to what many white people think, Britain hasn't been a White country for decades. Leicester was on the news the other night, it no longer has an ethnic minority but an ethnic majority.

[Markgway]

An innocent guy Jean Charles de Menezes was shot because he "looked suspiscious"

That was a monumental fuck-up and heads should've rolled for that one. However I don't think we can use that as a benchmark in argument. No one is going to get locked up for 42 days and then shot eight times.

[grim_tales]

When the guy found important documents on a train, he should have handed them to the police, not told the bloody newspapers!

[Shen]

why grim? so the government can continue fucking up in classic style without anyone knowing...i wouldn't trust these people with my cat, let alone the decisions of my freedoms.

[grim_tales]

Well he shouldnt have tried to make money from them. What would you have done?
I don't agree about the Government storing everything about me on a computer or whatever, something very dodgy about that IMO.
Welcome back BTW

[bradavon]

When the guy found important documents on a train, he should have handed them to the police, not told the bloody newspapers!

Didn't he tell his seniors? It got leaked to the press. I don't think he told them. It depends which case you're talking about, it's happened so often .

I don't agree about the Government storing everything about me on a computer or whatever, something very dodgy about that IMO.

If government institutions stored NOTHING about us the country would fall to bits . We've had details stored about us for decades.

It seems like people dislike the idea of biometric data being stored.

[romerojpg]

When the guy found important documents on a train, he should have handed them to the police, not told the bloody newspapers!

Yup just hand them to the cops?

What if he was a Muslim? they would have blown him away and set him up for treason on the spot!

Or it would have been covered up as usual. The sheer volume of missing documents going around is staggering, they rarley tell us about any of them, just the ones the media get wind of, so like 1%.


It was out company who lost the NHS documents last year, ohh how I laffed, after that we were warned of bomb alerts and took drills Yeah because them crazy mad bombers are gonna blow us all away now

[gasteropod]

Leicester was on the news the other night, it no longer has an ethnic minority but an ethnic majority.

It's funny you should say that, as a few years ago when I visited a university in Leicester, it really was like spot-the-white-person, it actually made me feel really uncomfortable.