Memoirs of a Geisha . . .

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Jul 2005, 01:46

What will be interesting to see when 'Memoirs of a Geisha' gets released and is something of a huge change for Hollywood will be seeing Asian actors not only in lead roles but outnumbering their Western actors.

I don't know of another Hollywood film that features Asian actors so much?

Sure there have been many, many examples of non-Americans playing lead roles in Hollywood films but this is something of a change. I for one really hope this opens the flood gates of letting Asians finally get offered the better scripts at long last.

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With all the hoo har over the lead not being Japanese it got me thinking I'm actually more worried that bar Michelle Yeoh all the lead actors/actresses first language is not English yet the film is entirely in English.

Is anyone else worried by this? I hear Zhang Ziyi's English is much better but good enough to carry the lead in a film? I hope so.

Having said that it seems part of the film could be in Japanese . . .

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The only thing I found funny is that some of the lead actors speak Japanese, while Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh speak English.

Source: http://www.helloziyi.us/Movies/memoirs-of-a-geisha.htm

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Declaring that "my only criteria was who's the best person for the role," Marshall chose China's Ziyi Zhang ("Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon") to play Sayuri, the fictional Japanese girl snatched from her humble fishing village and taken to a Kyoto okiya where she becomes the most celebrated geisha of the 1930s.

Marshall then cast Gong Li, perhaps the most recognizable international Chinese star of her generation, as Sayuri's conniving rival, Hatsumomo. He picked Malaysian Michelle Yeoh, also of "Crouching Tiger" fame, to play the guiding mother figure, Mameha.

"Americans are too often oblivious to distinctions between Asian cultures, and Hollywood should not be encouraging that," says Merry White

Marshall acknowledges that casting a movie of mixed cultural complexion was not his original preference. The director says he spent a year searching for a Japanese actress with the combination of dancing skills, beauty and English proficiency to play Sayuri.

"She also had to be someone who could hold a movie, carry it on her back," Marshall said. "I felt like I was casting Scarlett O'Hara."

"I said, 'Guys, we need to cast a wider net,' " Marshall recalls. Back in New York, he met and auditioned Zhang. "I had seen her in 'Crouching Tiger' and thought she was beautiful," he says, adding with a laugh that Spielberg had rejected Zhang for a part in "Memoirs" years earlier because the only English words she knew at the time were "hire me."

Source: http://michelleyeoh.info/Movie/Mg/Artic ... 30605.html

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 24 Jul 2005, 01:50

What on earth does 'Michelle Yeoh' see in 'Jean Todt'? He's ugly and nearly 60! -

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 24 Jul 2005, 02:00

I wish Michelle would break up with him.

Since they got together, Ferrari hasn't won a race.
Jean Todt is losing his concentration because of her (who wouldn't

).

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 24 Jul 2005, 16:01

bradavon wrote:What on earth does 'Michelle Yeoh' see in 'Jean Todt'? He's ugly and nearly 60! -

He's either...

A. Rich
B. Well-endowed
C. Rich and well-endowed

It's probably A!

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 26 Aug 2005, 14:32

http://www.movies.co.jp/sayuri/trailer/ ... r_500k.wmv

First trailer for Memoirs of a Geisha.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 26 Aug 2005, 23:59

Thanks Tom.

I've been looking forward to a trailer. What's funny?

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 27 Aug 2005, 00:10

Zhang Ziyi's english is funny...in a horrible kind of way.

So far my expectations for this film are below zero.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 27 Aug 2005, 02:25

The good:

* All the big name Asian stars in a Hollywood film, this would've never happened even 10 years ago!
* Zhang Ziyi sounds as cute as Shui Qi
* The set pieces

The bad:

* Rob Marshall
* Miramax
* This really should've been in Japanese and (probably) by a Japanese director
* How good really will Zhang Ziyi's English be? Sure has plenty of screen charisma but the film won't work unless she does.

Both really aren't known for their artistic integrity. So many Miramax financed films have great stories but always go for the Hollywood let's guarantee an Oscar filming, lots of "time to cry" moments.

I'm really looking forward to this but am equally worried by the choice of director. Chicago was lots of fun but that is a very American film.

Can the authenticity be upheld? I seriously doubt it.

Tom2681 wrote:Zhang Ziyi's english is funny...in a horrible kind of way.

How so?

donnarose · Post by **donnarose** » 27 Aug 2005, 12:24

Markgway wrote:
bradavon wrote:What on earth does 'Michelle Yeoh' see in 'Jean Todt'? He's ugly and nearly 60! -
He's either...

A. Rich
B. Well-endowed
C. Rich and well-endowed

It's probably A!

Sorry...gotta burst a few bubbles here: My best guess??

A: He's mature enough to not be threatened by her and her success, so she can relax and just be herself.
B: He values and cherishes her. And lets her know it
C: He makes her laugh. Joy beats out all that other stuff sometimes!!!

Easy stuff...anybody can do it. No $$$ or physical attributes needed! But sure winners every time, IMO.

donnarose · Post by **donnarose** » 27 Aug 2005, 12:32

Tom2681 wrote:Zhang Ziyi's english is funny...in a horrible kind of way.

So far my expectations for this film are below zero.

Why the low expectations? I honestly haven't been following this film's making, yet I admire Michelle Yeoh. "The Touch" had it's rough parts (OK...LOTS of 'em!) but I liked what she did. Her "Wing Chun" is one of my favorite films. Zhang Ziyi drives me nuts, as does Shu Qui, tho I keep hoping I'll like them some day. Ziyi is always trembling and looks like she's about to either burst into tears or flip out. I ALMOST liked her in "2046" The other gal just gets pouty. The cute stuff wore off halfway through "Gorgeous" and I kept wishing Jason had left her in the trunk in "The Transporter". They both irritate me. Michelle? Always looks like she's thinking, analysing even tho she's feeling strong emotions. In control, but not rigid. I am looking forward to this film. I am not familiar with Japanese films so I don't know any Japanese actresses who could play the parts. Anyone have any suggestions?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 28 Aug 2005, 16:00

I think Tom has low expectations because it's a Western film of a very Asian subject. I can see his point of view, but then again the author is Western!

IMO Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi are both very talented actor. I don't get why many people hate Zhang Ziyi so much. To be fair Michelle Yeoh is nearly twice her age, was Michelle Yeoh a decent actor when she started?

I agree Shu Qui isn't a great actor but for what she stars in I've not had a problem with her performances. Let's not forget Gong Li, also a fantastic actor.

A: He's mature enough to not be threatened by her and her success, so she can relax and just be herself.

Yeah you're more than likely right.

C: He makes her laugh. Joy beats out all that other stuff sometimes!!!

I really don't get this one. Why do so many women look for men who can make them laugh?

I don't go around looking for a woman who can make me laugh. It's not because I'd feel inferior or anything the thought just doesn't enter my head.

I kept wishing Jason had left her in the trunk in "The Transporter".

p.s - Michelle Yeoh saved "The Touch". I've seen far worse.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 28 Aug 2005, 17:01

Brad wrote:I think Tom has low expectations because it's a Western film of a very Asian subject.

Bingo.

But my main problems with this film are:
-They hired 2 Chinese and 1 Malaysian actresses to play japanese geishas. And I can't think of any woman who looks more chinese than Zhang Ziyi or Gong Li.
-It looks like they shot this movie in english instead of japanese (the trailer doesn't look dubbed).

Still, I'm sure I won't be disappointed (since I'm not expecting anything from this film

).

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 29 Aug 2005, 00:40

Tom2681 wrote:But my main problems with this film are:
-They hired 2 Chinese and 1 Malaysian actresses to play japanese geishas. And I can't think of any woman who looks more chinese than Zhang Ziyi or Gong Li.
-It looks like they shot this movie in english instead of japanese (the trailer doesn't look dubbed).

No offence again Tom but both these statements are commonly cited and really get on my nerves:

- Big bloody deal? The list is longer than my arm of non-Americans playing Americans. Is Colin Farrell American? Is Max Von Sydow American? Hell is Gwyneth Paltrow English?

Nope but all are completely convincing, or mostly convincing at least. It didn't stop "Phone Booth" from being a huge cult hit. Surely in a country of over 300 million people I'm sure Joel Schumacher could've found an American if he wanted to. I don't remember ANYONE complaining Colin Farrell is in fact Irish.

The fact is these are actors and in some cases very good actors. I for one would be much happier for a Chinese person to play a Japanese person well than if they'd picked a Japanese person who couldn't act but just happened to be Japanese.

- Of course it's shot in English. Again does it really matter? Sure I'd prefer it was shot in Japanese but then all that would happen is people would complain that each non-Japanese actor stumbled through their lines.

Take "The Pianist" outstanding masterpiece, sure again it would've been better in Polish but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day when we're talking about a film from such a high calibre.

If more people can learn something about WW2 (or Geishas for that matter) by filming in English then I'm all for it. Filming in Polish (or Japanese) would greatly limit it's success.

If the film is made to a high standard then IMO it really doesn't matter and let's face it it's a financial risk to release an American film not in English.

Before you say it no not just on to the American market but worldwide it's a risk. The fact is the majority of the world adores American films and doesn't even look at non-English American movies. Most countries American films even do better than local offerings.

With France, Korea and I "think" Spain being some of the exceptions.

- I'm much more worried about the financer and director. It's going to be gorgeous, made to a high standard but as for artist integrity I'm really not sure. I sense lots of gloss in only a way Miramax can achieve.

Just look at Chocolat, A Beautiful Mind, Cold Mountain. The latter two at least are excellent films but real they are not.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 29 Aug 2005, 01:12

How I LOVE arguing with Brad !

The list is longer than my arm of non-Americans playing Americans.

Totally irrelevant.
While a british, german or a frenchman can "look and act" like an american, a chinese girl doesn't "look" like a japanese.

That's what I'm saying. Colin Farrell can play an american because he is caucasian.
Zhang Ziyi is physically chinese, not japanese. It doesn't matter how well she can act, or how good the make-up looks.

Of course it's shot in English. Again does it really matter?

It does to me.
Take Mulan for example: the english dub is so awful it ruined the film for me when I went to see it at the theater.
Now that I have the DVD, I can listen to the mandarin dub which sounds much better.

There are lots of other films that suffer from these language issues:
-Wheels on Meals with the spanish cast that speaks perfect cantonese.
-Schindler's List where everybody speaks english.
-And many others that are partially or completely ruined by the choice of language.

Just look at Chocolat, A Beautiful Mind, Cold Mountain. The latter two at least are excellent films but real they are not.

That's exactly the kind of film that "Memoirs..." is going to be IMHO: mindless glossy Oscar-ceremony material.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 29 Aug 2005, 01:34

Mulan was shot in Mandarin? I never knew that. I thought it was an American film.

Tom2681 wrote:How I LOVE arguing with Brad !

Everyone does 8)

Zhang Ziyi is physically chinese, not japanese. It doesn't matter how well she can act, or how good the make-up looks.

You must be in the minority who can notice that much difference (where none really exists)

Sure a Chinese person is different from a Japanese person but that's basically saying a European is wildly different to an Australian. Besides Michelle Yeoh isn't even Chinese.

There are lots of other films that suffer from these language issues:
-Wheels on Meals with the spanish cast that speaks perfect cantonese.
-Schindler's List where everybody speaks english.

How can you compare MOW which uses dubbing to make the Spanish actors speak Cantonese to proper sync-sound? They're in a completely different ball park.

As for Schindler's List. If it was shot in German we'd either have actors who can't speak German stumble through their lines, German actors who may not be very good at acting (the country is hardly known for it's calibre of acting talent or to any great degree anyway) or a film that a lot less people would see.

Which would be a shame when the film is so good (considering it's a Spielberg picture).

The fact is most directors and musicians for that matter realise shooting/singing in English will give their work a much bigger chance. It's not going to change any time soon so to go into a film expecting it to be crud just because it's in English will only mean said person doesn't give it a fair chance.

That said if the film isn't very good shooting in English when it shouldn't be really helps to show the films flaws, such as Chocolat.

mindless glossy Oscar-ceremony material.

I worry you'll be right but I don't believe it will be mindless.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 29 Aug 2005, 01:41

Brad wrote:Mulan was shot in Mandarin ?

Nope, it was meant to be dubbed into english.

I just feel that the people who did the mandarin dub did a much better job (especially Kelly Lin and Jackie Chan).

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Aug 2005, 08:56

Do you mean the Disney film Mulan (1998)? You've got me intrigued Tom

donnarose · Post by **donnarose** » 29 Aug 2005, 09:47

grim_tales wrote:Do you mean the Disney film Mulan (1998)? You've got me intrigued Tom

I think he is. Even if not, I was surprised how much better I enjoyed it when I watched Mulan in Mandarin. I always thought I was distracted by dubs because part of my brain registered something amiss when the mouth didn't match the speech. Sorta like a dog meowing and an cat barking. Yet this was a CARTOON, and I had the same reaction.

I would much prefer a Chinese to play a Japanese than a Caucasion to attempt the part. Sidney Toler was entertaining as Charlie Chan, yet that certainly wouldn't do for something like this!!!

I have a friend who's Dad's family is Chinese and Mom's is Japanese. Except for his Mom's mother who was Irish, which accounts for his dramatically sea-green eyes. To add to this genetic melange he has found religion within the Lakota tribe. Part of the Sioux nation....Native Americans. He is always puzzled when people think he himself is Native American because he sees himself as being obviously Asian. Yet comments that he "feels so white". Jokes that I'M more Chinese than he is. I have seen several photos of Native Americans and Chinese that could easily be pictures of family members in different dress.

I think the majority of viewers will easily accept the actresses in their roles as Japanese and will concentrate on the fascinating tale that will unfold. If that fails, it will not be because of miscasting.

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 29 Aug 2005, 17:41

Yep, I was talking about Disney's Mulan.

While I really hated the english dub (with Ming Na and Eddie Murphy), I found the Mandarin dub (with Kelly Lin and Jackie Chan) much better.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 29 Aug 2005, 17:53

Is the Mandarin dub only available on the R3?

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 29 Aug 2005, 19:26

grim_tales wrote:Do you mean the Disney film Mulan (1998)? You've got me intrigued Tom

What other Mulan is there???

donnarose wrote:I would much prefer a Chinese to play a Japanese than a Caucasion to attempt the part. Sidney Toler was entertaining as Charlie Chan, yet that certainly wouldn't do for something like this!!!

Yep definitely. While I put up with it in 1930-50s films it's no longer acceptable. I don't think even Hollywood is that far removed from reality.

I have a friend who's Dad's family is Chinese and Mom's is Japanese. Except for his Mom's mother who was Irish, which accounts for his dramatically sea-green eyes. To add to this genetic melange he has found religion within the Lakota tribe. Part of the Sioux nation....Native Americans. He is always puzzled when people think he himself is Native American because he sees himself as being obviously Asian. Yet comments that he "feels so white". Jokes that I'M more Chinese than he is.

Only in America would you see this unique and fascinating mix.

So his Mum is part Irish and part Japanese then, right?

It sounds like from my possibly ignorant view he is American first and Asian second. Does he look like he's from the Sioux tribe?

I've always found it a little odd when you hear Irish-Americans say they're just that but have an American accent and may have never even been to Ireland, especially when it's more accurate to say American-Irish. I'm English-Irish but it's not like I could actually say that, so I say English. Which is what I feel and where I've always lived but to some degree is a lie.

I have seen several photos of Native Americans and Chinese that could easily be pictures of family members in different dress.

Yep. One John Woo played on this in Windtalkers.

I think the majority of viewers will easily accept the actresses in their roles as Japanese and will concentrate on the fascinating tale that will unfold. If that fails, it will not be because of miscasting.

Exactly well said.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 30 Aug 2005, 09:52

As for Geisha...

I think this is just messed up, instead of having 3 actors "stumble" through Japanese lines (which I probably wouldn't pick up on) I get to see everyong "stumble" through English (which everyone probably will pick up on

).

Oh well, I'll probably not see this in the Cinema anyways, since Cinema tickets are US$14 bucks and heck, you get the DVD for that price

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 30 Aug 2005, 09:54

Brad/Tom wasn't there a recent live-action Mulan in HK or something? "Legend of Hua Mulan" (?)

tom2681 · Post by **tom2681** » 30 Aug 2005, 17:44

That's a Michelle Yeoh project.
It's been shelved for the time being.

grim_tales · Post by **grim_tales** » 30 Aug 2005, 17:52

Oh OK. My bad

Didnt realise.